Atari Falcon 030 Tower

[FatRakoon]

Hallo guys.

Just thought Id butt-in here, but I am an Atari owner.

I have :-

TT - 10+26MB 030 @ 32Mhz - Nova

Falcon - 14+256 060@110Mhz - ATI Rage 3D

Both are fairly well specced systems, the TT currently Running Magic&Jinnee and the Falcon running MiNT.

Plus a few various STs in one flavour or another, but who cares about them?

I would like to make one small note and leave.

Too many people judge the Atari machines based on the first ever ST, and assume that all ataris are the same as the next one.

Like the Amiga, this is simply not so!

Some Atari machines and their clones ( Yes, even teh Atari has a number of clones because Atari themselves are no longer around, there are still planty of users who still support it fully ) have developed into some seriously powerful machines indeed... Just like the Amiga.

I notice that many dont like GEM. Thats fine.Im not sure I know many that truly do like it, but this too has developed beyond all expectations. My own personal favourite O/S for the Atari, is Magic and the desktop I chose is Jinnee. Still based on the GEM enviroment of course but infinitely different at the same time.

I cannot comment on what desktops and Operating systems there are for the Amiga because I simply dont know, but the Atari has many different Operating systems not only its own built in one, and has a number of Desktops too, all giving their 2p's worth, so if you dont like GEM, then ou can chose any number of alternatives, and oyu can customise the look and feel of most of these desktops to how you want them to look, so can even get to the point where you wil find it hard to know if oyu are still on an Atari, or if you are running MacOS8 or 9 or even X or Windows, or Linux... My own desktops are very sparse and are incredibly boring, but then so are my Windows and Linux PCs Desktops. I prefer functionality to pretty eye candy that does nothign to improve my work.

Anyway, Im talkign crap now.

Basically I love my Ataris. Always have done and always will. I loved my Amigas too, but only for gaming. I stuck with the ST for work and the Amiga for play...I sometimes wonder how I would feel if I had gone with Amiga instead of Atari, and I often ask myself would I still have an Amiga as my main Machine like I have my Ataris or will I have moved to PC / Mac?

[Harrison]

Interesting to hear some comments from a still devoted Atari fan. Voice from the dark side!

It is interesting that you mentioned you used an ST for business and an Amiga for games. And I have to ask why? I owned an Atari ST for a few years (1987-1991) before finally getting my first Amiga, although I had used Amigas a lot before this. As you can imagine I managed to collect a lot of software for the ST before getting the Amiga, but once I had used Workbench 2 I instantly ditched the ST completely. GEM is just not compariable to the Amiga's Workbench and the quality of the software even more so. The ST was a great 16bit machine for me at the time, but once I had experienced the Amiga there was no going back. It was just inferior in all aspects. Very close in capabilities but lacking the heart and soul of the Amiga.

However it is interesting to read about different OSs for the ST and continued development after the demise of the system. Do you have any links to more information about the more recent activity in the ST world? And do you know if some of these other OSs can be run via emulation, so I can have a play around and see what they are like.

[TiredOfLife]

I will have to scrub my eyes with a brillo pad after reading that heretic nonsense.
Although I do sense someone wants to be invited to the side of light.

Hallo guys.

I cannot comment on what desktops and Operating systems there are for the Amiga because I simply dont know

Come into the light, try AOS3.9, you know you want to.

[Harrison]

The quote you gave is very accurate in relation to the whole battle between the Amiga and ST. Those fighting for the ST had mostly never actually used an Amiga so didn't really know both sides of the argument. They just clung to their machine because it was the one they owned and loved because they had used and learnt everything about it.

GEM just doesn't compare to Workbench at all. GEM is quite a fixed and restricted OS with very limited customisation or the ability to do much more than it offers out of the box when you boot the system. In contrast the Amiga's Workbench offers a huge level of customisation, allowing every aspect of the OS to be altered to the users needs, and far ahead of any other OS at the time, with Workbench 2 and higher offering a feature set far in advance of GEM in every regard. It is just a shame that more didn't actually ever get to experience it.

And even more so for the large percentage of Amiga owners back in the day who never used Workbench! Mad as that sounds a lot of people did just use their A500 like a games console, sticking the game disk in and booted directly into the game. Never needing to use Workbench other than the one failed attempt shortly after buying the system when all new users tried to use Workbench to copy a game disk! Everyone did that I'm sure.

[FatRakoon]

Actually, I am lucky in that I had both Amigas and Ataris way back in... crikey... I had just started colledge so that was 20 years ago!!!

Anyway, the ST v the Amiga at the time sure, GEM was poor... It was close to being fowl Im not going to argue that one out, and it was very bland compared to Amigs WorkBench, but like the amiga, GEM has developed. It is absolutely nothing like it used to be... Or rather to be fair, the replacement desktops you can get for the Atari, might at first glance, look like GEM, they are far, far from it.

Sure, the AES is still GEM based, the VDI is still GEM based, but the whoel OS is nothing like it.

My preferred O/S on my Ataris is MAGIC ( v6.2 )
My preferred Desktop is JINNEE ( v2.5 )

Now, both of these are still commercial, however a very popular free OpenSource O/S is MiNT... It seems that the preferred Desktop for MiNT is THING.


Both MiNT and Magic are fully preemptive Multitasking OSes and both have completely left the standard GEM years ago in the dark ages.

MiNT is based on UNIX originally and since Linux has taken a foothold in the PC world, MiNT has also developed too... For example, an Atari running MiNT, can use any combination of Atari, Windows, or Linux partitions as it feels like, it can also run a great deal of Linux, or rather "X" based softwware, and this is alongside the Atari software... Kind of like users who run Linux, can use WINE to run Windows programs, but this is an Atari running Linux programs without the need for wine, plus as I said, it can use Linux, windows and Atari partitions just fine.

Magic can use FAT16/FAT32 Partitions and Atari Partitions but not linux/minix ones.

To say that Ataris these days is still using GEM is just like saying the Amigas all use the classic WorkBench from the A500 - its a complete lie and quite frankly ridiculous and just stupid to even consider it.

When I show people my Atari, they call me a liar and say its a Mac or a PC but they cannot accept that its an Atari.

Too man ypeople seem to assume that all Ataris are the ST but like the Amiga has changed from the A500, the ST has also changed too!

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Yes, GEM is restrictive right out of the box, but then so is WorkBench.

GEM is only meant to be a GET-U-Going Setup, this is where replacement Desktops come into it ,and which is why there are so many of them, much like Linux.
I myself as I say prefer Jinnee, and I will give you a handfull of perfect examples... AS this is how I have mine setup.

I right click on a WAV file, a Contect menu pops up... I can

CONVERT ( to a number of other Sample formats, or maybe MP3 or OGG )
MAKE MONO/STEREO
Simply play it back with some other program ( I have setup GEMJING )
Plus the other thigns such as DELETE etc.

I have set up scripts to do similar thigns with other filetypes such as converting or opening up various PICCIES etc...

All with tiny scripts

I have written tons of the most useless junk, but there is almost nothing that I cannot do with any file all from the Desktop, and all in just a click or two.

No, I have to openly admit however, that the built-in GEM on all Ataris is not very nice at all, and I think I stopped bothering with even trying to use the built-in GEM sometime around 1990 and even before that I never cared for it.

Thats one area the Amiga really was better, but really guys, the replacement desktops left the Amiga behind in almost every respect because they did exactly what the original GEM failed to do.

So, check out JINNEE or its older version EASE - both of these can use Windows, Linux or MAC Icons and both are fairly customisable, Jinnee with its scripting even more so.

In terms of Power, there is nothign in them even today... Both the Amiga and the Atari I am sure, both have clones, some based around the 680x0 up to wherever that is now? - and both have clones based around teh coldfire project which are what 300MHZ?

Both have graphics cards, the atari very much seems to be based around ATI, I myself have an ATI RAGE but I have only last week bought myself a 4xPCI Slots adapter which has built-in driver support for the ATI 7000 and 7500 cardsso that will help out in not needing a VGA Switcher

Both can use Extra SoundCards, I could use a Creative SBLIVE or AUDIGY and aparently the XFI too ( What for? ) but I myself see absolutely no reason to bother and I am perfectly happy with the OnBoard stuff and an FDI unit for the Optical Audio

I have a mate who lives up the road, who is an Amiga fanatic... We both have laughs at each other in the pub, Me at his Amoeba and him at my TiTTy ( I also have An Atari TT too, that he calls my titty although the falcon is the real beast ) and we have both realised somehting... Both the Amiga and the Atari are NOTHING like we thought they were... He could not believe that my Atari could do half the thigns it could and many things it can do taht the Amiga could not, but again, his amiga can do this that my Atari could not, and in both cases, we both agreed that this was only down to the fact that our software list was limited and that they are both more than capable of doing anything that we wanted them to... Within reason!

Atari Emulation:-

Nah, I got to be completely honest with you, but Atari Emulation is really only based around the ST, and even then, its really only for playing back the old ST games.

This is somehting thats lacking massively if you ask me.

A few EMualtors to try are STEEM, SAINT, PacifiST, NoSTalgia, GEMulator My favourite I suppose )

Annoyingly even the ones like STEEM do allow vistual screen modes, they still dont allow more than 16 Colours - Im not up on emulators though... Never seen a need to since I have the real thing.

Oh, and of course UAE also emulates the ST too!

Ok, so they will only emulate the shitty ST screen modes, but at least if you get them up and running nicely, you can install Magic & Jinnee or even MiNT & Thing and then once you see them running, you will see just how far the Atari really has come...

---

Oh, one more thing before I go... Here is a great trick to show people that no other computer platform does... As far as I know anyway...

I use Magic & Jinnee as I said.

Now, lets just say that I am working on a WebPage of some description...

I select VIEW SOURCE, and my HTML Editor comes up... I use QED Text Editor ( Bit like NotePad I suppose )

I start typing, and automatically, in the background, I can see the webpage changing... AS I type!!! - Cool.

The changes I am making in the source code, are automatically beign sent to the HTML Viewer.

WOW, ok, what about Pictures then? - I choce to view the picture instead, and then I do summat to it, and the picture on the WEBPAGE gets changed to!!! - Sweet or what?
Sod it, I didnt want to do that, no problem, I just dont save it and bingo, the picture goes back to how it should be!!! - Windows does not even do that... Full control of all programs and full interaction with each other even though they are not in any way linked to each other!!!

I suppose you have to see it to understand, but its somehtign that no one else has ever seen before or since except those who have a proper Atari.

[Harrison]

I've not used them but I have seen many screenshots and read quite a bit about the replacement OSs and desktops for the ST. Definitely a huge and impressive improvement over GEM and as you say it is hard to believe they could be running on the same platform.

However have you seen or used the more recent versions of the Amiga's Workbench, now called Amiga OS? A classic amiga running Amiga OS 3.9 or a PPC Amiga running Amiga OS4?

Even the 1991 Workbench 2.04 was a huge leap forward from the older more limited Workbench 1.3 that was included with the A500. But even 1.3 showed up GEM.

Personally from looking at the alternative OSs for the ST, they are a huge improvement, but still not up to the standard of a well customised Amiga!

Plus you forgot to mention one little detail. The ST's hardware is far inferior to the Amiga's and that will never change. he he.

BTW, the comments about live editing between applications is very interesting and possibly the one saving grace of your fight for the ST in this thread. Although, while not system wide, Adobe/Macromedia applications on the PC/Mac are cross linked with live editing possible between them. And Dreamweaver allows live preview of pages as they are developed.

[Buleste]

For me the only experiance i have of Atari computers is through the hatari emulator for OS4 and that can only really emulate the ST and STE so i'm stuck with GEM. It's great to hear that the Atari's are still developing and still have just as many nutjobs as the Amiga community does.

[Harrison]

That is very true. These days both platforms are mostly used by existing enthusiasts and it is great to see dedicated users still trying to squeeze as much as they can out of them.

For me is highlights just how little today's computers are being pushed in comparison. Imagine what could be squeezed out of a PC if it were really pushed to its limits. Instead a games developer will just write for a faster graphics card and CPU to save development time.

About the only platforms pushes as far are games consoles, where the fixed hardware introduces similar restraints as the life of the platform progresses and developers try to get more and more from them.