Dell U2410 on the Amiga

I thought I would make a separate topic to put some photographs of my Dell U2410 connected to my Amigas.

Summary: It supports the Amiga's 15kHz output from the RGB port!

*Watches Amiga users dash out to buy one*

Firstly, I connected it to the Amiga 500+'s Mono port, since I couldn't find my A520.

Here are some pictures:

Attachment 826
Attachment 827

It supports Picture in Picture and Picture Beside Picture:

Attachment 828

I hooked up the A500+ to the amp and speakers as well. This could make a nice gaming setup:

Attachment 829

Here's a close up:
Attachment 830

Next I tried the A1200 with its colour composite output and RGB. It was quite a surprise that the regular PAL mode worked on the VGA input. I expected only the 30kHz modes to work.

Colour composite isn't as good quality as monochrome, but it works. RGB is much better. I had to turn the sharpness all the way down though for it to look decent, as it looked crap at first.

Here are some comparisons between composite and RGB:

Holiday Lemmings 1994, Composite:
Attachment 831

Holiday Lemmings 1994, RGB:
Attachment 832

Superfrog, Composite:
Attachment 833

Superfrog, RGB:
Attachment 834

Here is the A500+ connected to the RGB port via a Silver Box adaptor. The monitor's OSD just says the mode is 576i.
Attachment 835

I think once I have built my new desk (I'm making progress, honest), I will keep an Amiga out permanently to use on this monitor alongside the PC, since it obviously works with no extra effort.

The RGB mode is definitely better than composite. Personally, I don't think either are as good as using a proper Multiscan monitor (e.g. CM8833), but considering that we are more or less doubling the size of the image, I can't really complain. I'd say it is perfectly usable. The 30kHz output from the A1200 was good also, but it took a while to auto adjust. Some noise was noticable in all modes, but it wasn't too distracting.

When I had it connected to the A500+'s mono port, I did set it to a Super Highres Interlaced mode, and that worked fine. No flicker and was quite clear. It was certainly blurry, but still quite usable.

:)

Thanks for posting this Steve. That is very interesting news that it works with RGB. I'm wondering if newer monitors will because a lot of them are now using the same panels as HDTVs.

Definitely solves the problem for retro fans, with no need for expensive flicker fixers/scan doublers.

Yup, nice one. Although scanlines doesn't exist in such monitors, so graphics tend to be more blocky, but you can't have everything though. :)

That is a good point... because LCD monitors produce a much cleaner image and don't have the scanlines of CRTs the image will actually look more blocky and not as nice because it is actually showing them as they really are, whereas originally graphics artists designed graphics to take advantage of CRT and scanlines, so it works against that with new displays.

I've no idea whether other monitors will support the 15kHz signal.

This is not in the specification, as it says the signal should be a minimum of 30kHz.

Maybe it is using the same analogue to digital converter circuits on the VGA port that are used for the video ports.

Steve, do you mind me asking how much you paid for this monitor?

Also has anyone ever considered refurbished ones? I noticed a company listed as an official Dell re-supplier, selling refurbished units with a 1 year warranty for 2/3 the retail price.

I paid about £429 for it inc delivery and VAT.

Here is the link. Looks like it has been reduced by £15 http://www.pcbuyit.co.uk/dell-ultras...tor-p-822.html.

A refurbished one would probably be fine. I'm not sure if you would get the Dell warranty with it though. The Dell warranty is three years and covers against any dead pixels. It is probably a good thing that they include a good warranty as I have heard that there have been some quality control issues with this monitor.

Thinking of getting one harrison?

No. I wouldn't want to pay that much for a 22-24" monitor with only a 1920x1200 resolution. Although I know the reason it does cost a lot more than most in this size range is because it does have a very good display that is quite accurate for professional use where colour accuracy is more important, and an area I need a display to be good for.

I was just asking because the larger 27" U2711 2560x1440 can be purchased refurbished for the same price.

This is awesome!

From the latests tests we did in Brazil all this Dell series monitors are able to sync in 15kHz.

Run for it while you can!

That's good to know :)

I don't have any other modern LCD monitors so can't test anything else, and since buying this one, I haven't been keeping up to date with what is available.

Which models did you test?

Here we currently have the U2412M, which is the one two guys bought and are using hapilly.

Sorry for reviving this topic, but I just got a U2410 to use my Amiga with, and on PIP, the left side of my A1200's image is cut. Has anyone experienced anything similar?

Thanks in advance!

Hi pedrorq.

Do you mean like in this photo? Here, the left side is chopped off, and there is a blank space at the right. The Amiga is in PAL mode. I don't think there is anything you could do about this as the PIP box doesn't have any configuration options.

Attachment 990

However, if using Workbench, you could adjust the overscan setting to make the Workbench Screen fit as in this photo. I reckon it is probably just caused by some incompatibility with the Amiga's screen mode.

Attachment 991

DblPAL HiRes No Flicker works fine in PIP:

Attachment 992

But for some reason, when displayed full screen, the monitor thinks that DblPAL HiRes No Flicker is 1080i, and forces it to widescreen mode:

Attachment 993

I'm wondering if it is because of the way the Amiga uses overscan?

Hi Stephen, thank you for your patience and for your help!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

Hi pedrorq.

Do you mean like in this photo? Here, the left side is chopped off, and there is a blank space at the right. The Amiga is in PAL mode. I don't think there is anything you could do about this as the PIP box doesn't have any configuration options.

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That's exactly what happens to me :) I can make it slightly better by adjusting the VGA settings before I activate PIP, but still lose a (smaller) section.

You mentioned PAL mode. I tried booting the A1200 in NTSC, same issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

However, if using Workbench, you could adjust the overscan setting to make the Workbench Screen fit as in this photo. I reckon it is probably just caused by some incompatibility with the Amiga's screen mode.

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I'm afraid my techie skills are not the greatest when it comes to the Amiga :) Where can I find this overscan setting? Also, does it stay "saved" between sessions or does it require adjusting every time I start the Amiga?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

DblPAL HiRes No Flicker works fine in PIP:

But for some reason, when displayed full screen, the monitor thinks that DblPAL HiRes No Flicker is 1080i, and forces it to widescreen mode:

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I confess to not knowing what DblPal HiRes is :)

Interestingly, my 2nd monitor is a Dell 2001FP that also works nicely with the amiga, but also with a few columns chopped on the left.

Thanks again!
Pedro

How is the U2412M anyway? I wanted to buy one already over one year ago, but still use my older Samsung 22". It's not mandatory to buy one, but I always thought it was a good monitor. My online shop sells it for 236€ at the moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pedrorq

I'm afraid my techie skills are not the greatest when it comes to the Amiga :) Where can I find this overscan setting? Also, does it stay "saved" between sessions or does it require adjusting every time I start the Amiga?

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Open up your Workbench disk, and open up the 'Prefs' drawer. Overscan is one of the icons in the prefs drawer. If you press the Save button, it will save it for when you are using Workbench. However, it won't affect any games, so if you end up missing parts of the screen when playing games, I think you'll just have to put up with it. The Overscan controls are quite handy as they allow you to make the best use of whatever available space you have on your particular monitor.

Quote:

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I confess to not knowing what DblPal HiRes is :)

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DblPal and Multiscan are some other video modes which the Amiga 1200 can use. They have a higher horizontal frequency (around 30kHz) than the PAL and NTSC modes, so are better for VGA monitors. They also have a higher resolution, so you can get more usable space on the screen.

Hope that helps.

@DC. The Dell monitors are brilliant. Very nice crisp display with very accurate colours. Plus a great stand with sturdy build quality and loads of inputs for nearly anything you can think of. The only thing many people find takes a bit of time to get used to is the matt coating on the screen which removes all reflection. Being from a design background I'm used to this and prefer it, but it still took me a bit to get used to it on these monitors.

They also have a great OSD allowing for you to set everything you could think of.

I however own the larger 27" Dell U2711 which is the much bigger brother to the U2410 and has a higher resolution of 2560x1440 which I find very useful as it's the same width as an older dual monitor setup.

Just be careful buying one these days because some of the newer models are cut down versions compared to the original U2410. I think it was the U2412 or maybe another model which didn't have any of the extra inputs and only came with DVI, VGA and HDMI which isn't as useful as having all the inputs such as component, composite, displayport, dual DVI etc.

They have the U2713 now, and it's 529€, so over double the price for 3 inches!

The 2713 might not be the same spec though.

But the 27" version is definitely worth it for the extra resolution you get... 2560x1440 compared to 1920x1200.

I actually purchased the U2410, used, on eBay, as I had read it was 100% compatible with the Amiga (I read somewhere the U2412M does not display all 15KHz resolutions), and am now slightly disappointed to witness this behaviour on PIP :(

I also have a Dell 2001FP and every time it starts, on full screen VGA, the behaviour is similar - screen moved to the left. But in that case, as it's full screen, I can adjust it properly (although it becomes painful doing it on every reboot)

Unfortunately I think you are just going to have to put up with it. The monitors specification doesn't actually say it will support the Amiga modes, and you usually have to take pot luck with these things anyway. Personally, I'm grateful that it works as well as it does.

Are there many other monitors around these days which will work with the Amiga's 15kHz modes?

Quote:

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I also have a Dell 2001FP and every time it starts, on full screen VGA, the behaviour is similar - screen moved to the left. But in that case, as it's full screen, I can adjust it properly (although it becomes painful doing it on every reboot)

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Are you adjusting the monitor on each reboot, or adjusting the Amiga on each reboot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

Unfortunately I think you are just going to have to put up with it. The monitors specification doesn't actually say it will support the Amiga modes, and you usually have to take pot luck with these things anyway. Personally, I'm grateful that it works as well as it does.

Are there many other monitors around these days which will work with the Amiga's 15kHz modes?

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Severall Dell models do: ST2320L, ST2420L, SR2320L, U2412M. The U2410 has several features that make them appealing to Amiga users (PIP, 16:10, etc), hence my choice :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

Quote:

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I also have a Dell 2001FP and every time it starts, on full screen VGA, the behaviour is similar - screen moved to the left. But in that case, as it's full screen, I can adjust it properly (although it becomes painful doing it on every reboot)

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Are you adjusting the monitor on each reboot, or adjusting the Amiga on each reboot?

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For each Amiga reboot (or cold boot), I have to adjust the monitor.

This doesn't happen on composite though, but the image quality of composite is inferior to the RGB-VGA.

That sounds a bit strange. Do you have any other Amigas that you could try, to see if it happen on any others?

My monitor seems to remember the settings fine for my A1200.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

That sounds a bit strange. Do you have any other Amigas that you could try, to see if it happen on any others?

My monitor seems to remember the settings fine for my A1200.

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I can probably try my A600 to see if the same thing happens, but I think the issue is reported by many other Amiga enthusiasts who have the Dell 2001FP

Guess I have yet to find the "perfect" Amiga monitor :D

I am considering the purchase of the U2410 for use with my A500. As I intend to use it full screen (4:3), the PiP option is not important to me. I am only concerned about how smoothly the vertical and horizontal scrolling is in both NTSC and PAL HiRes screenmodes.

Interlace mode is just a curiosity, as there are only a few games that use that display mode, but it would be nice if it handles that good as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdryyz

I am considering the purchase of the U2410 for use with my A500. As I intend to use it full screen (4:3), the PiP option is not important to me. I am only concerned about how smoothly the vertical and horizontal scrolling is in both NTSC and PAL HiRes screenmodes.

Interlace mode is just a curiosity, as there are only a few games that use that display mode, but it would be nice if it handles that good as well.

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Hi jdryyz.

By scrolling, do you mean like in games? If so, then its OK. Its not as good as a CRT monitor, but I'd say its quite usable.

The interlaced modes do work on the U2410. I'll post a picture later on.

Yes, mostly as it pertains to games, but I would hope text-based scrolling (via the Workbench) would also look good. I would be curious about both interlaced and non-interlaced screen performance with regard to vertical scrolling. Any artifacts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

Hi jdryyz.

By scrolling, do you mean like in games? If so, then its OK. Its not as good as a CRT monitor, but I'd say its quite usable.

The interlaced modes do work on the U2410. I'll post a picture later on.

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For scrolling in games, its not as good as a CRT monitor. There is a little bit of blurring, but whether or not that is a problem would be a matter of personal preference.

That's more an issue with how LCD screen technology works compared to CRT. Remember you removing flickering too which is a big plus over CRT, especially in higher interlaced screenmodes.

But the best way to get the best image is still to use an Amiga scan doubler and flicker fixer, such as an Indivision, or the cheaper GBS8220.

Stephen,

As Harrison said, I believe you are speaking more to LCD technology vs CRT. I do know that I will be giving up the refresh speed of a CRT. I was only referring to how well the U2410 handles 15KHz Amiga screen modes. I know it is not always done well, especially when it is not officially supported. Because the U2410 can be found used and relatively inexpensive now, I am willing to gamble a little. :)

Personally I can only comment on the larger U2711 which I own and that handled 15KHz screen resolutions really well. I use it all the time for consoles, including retro (SNES, Amiga, Megadrive), more modern ones such as Xbox and PS2 via Component, and modern such as PS3 and 360, and it handles them all really well. The image quality is brilliant and because these are aimed at the photographic and design industry the colour accuracy is really good supporting Adobe RGB colour space settings as well as print CMYK modes. Design and photography is the main reason for my buying mine, but equally because it handles so much more for retro systems.

You shouldn't be disappointed.

I agree with Harrison that the quality at 15kHz is very good.

If you can get a U2410 for a good price, you'll probably be pleased :).

Thank for both for your input.

I finally found a U2410 at a good price. It works quite well as you all described. I do have one minor complaint with it, though. There seems to be some weird distortion when my mouse cursor moves on top of other static images on the screen. It is subtle, but consistent. I assume it has to do with the 15KHz processing internal to the display as I do not see this on any other display. Actually, I do see something similar on my Sharp TV, so it could be something inherent to LCD panels that sync this low.

Here is a sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr-Z...ature=youtu.be

Also, although this does not have anything to do with the U2410, I notice it even more on this display. The Commodore 390682-01 RGB to VGA adapter has the unfortunate side effect of producing vertical lines on the screen. I remember reading about this back when the item first became available after the introduction of the A1200 and A4000. The response from most folks was that it was only noticeable on the initial boot but then it couldn't be seen when looking at the Workbench screen or with games/programs running. Well, I see the lines on everything.

Was there any remedy for this involving modification of something in the adapter itself? Do all adapters have this problem or just the Commodore ones? I know Amigakit sells one and people have also made their own.

You can see the vertical bands in the image I have attached (just ignore the moire pattern):

Attachment 1006

I also get the distortion around the mouse pointer. I'm pretty sure it will just be to do with the scaling (and other processing) in the monitor. I don't think you'd be able to do anything about it.

As for the vertical lines, I also get those, but never figured out what caused it. I thought it might have been the monitor, as I'd not seen it else where, but maybe it isn't. If it is caused by the adapter, I'd guess that the monitor just does a particularly good job of amplifying the lines. After all, it is quite a high resolution display.

I'm not sure why an adapter would cause these lines. All the Commodore adapter is is a pin adapter for the R, G and B lines, and a couple of logic gates to alter the sync signals. I can't remember exactly what it does, or why, but if memory serves, the logic gates invert the sync signals.

I will try and investigate further.

Yeah, I do not know what it is about the adapter that does this, but I know it is the source. If I run my RGB to SCART cable into my SCART to HDMI box, the lines disappear. Unfortunately, I have even more complaints about the converter box. Running the signal natively through the display seems the best way to go.

Thread necromancy.. Anyone know how the monitor copes with Amiga modes BETWEEN 15 and 31KHz like I seem to recall one has a sync around 28KHz? Is this a multisync or a bisync?

I can't answer that for you and I don't have my monitor setup at the moment to test it out. Maybe Stephen can help.

Dell don't actually state anything in the user guide about resolutions below 30KHz, other than the support for HDMI and other TV resolutions. The lower 15KHz support wasn't ever used as an official selling point and I think it happened as a bi-product of the monitors support for legacy TV modes.

In fact the monitor states a Horizontal scan range of 30 - 81 kHz and a Vertical range of 56 to 76 Hz.

And a maximum resolution of 1920x1200 at 60 Hz.

Would be interesting to find out if it does manage the Amiga's AGA chipset higher scan ranges below VGA.

Regarding the mouse. I've seen artifacts around the Amiga mouse pointer on every LCD screen I've ever used with the Amiga. And it happens on the Atari ST and other systems too. It's because the Amiga anti-aliases around the pointer and the Amiga overlays the mouse pointer above the screen resolution as a sprite of it's own resolution. LCD screens highlight any pixels used to anti-alias (smooth graphical edges) on most graphics originally designed for CRT because the original graphical artists used to utilise the CRTs scanlines in a way to make it look smoother. LCDs show every pixel clearly and this highlights the edges.

Regarding vertical lines on the display. I've also had this with most displays, and even saw them on Microvitic Multisync monitors I used to use on my A1200 and A4000, so it isn't something exclusive to LCD displays. As you say it doesn't seem to happen with RGB SCART as its a clean signal directly from the RGB port. It only seems to be when converting to VGA that it happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Methanoid

Thread necromancy.. Anyone know how the monitor copes with Amiga modes BETWEEN 15 and 31KHz like I seem to recall one has a sync around 28KHz? Is this a multisync or a bisync?

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Not sure if this U2410 monitor goes below 31Khz. I can't find anything about it's spec anywhere! - ....about right for Dell-crap.....

& yes, you are referring to DBLPAL/DBLNTSC @ 27Khz - Multi-Sync Monitor required. :thumbs:

*edit*

Found Specs:

Attachment 1107

From here: http://www.qed-productions.com/downl...410_manual.pdf

Kin Hell: I can confirm that the U2410 supports below 30kHz as that was the whole point of this thread!

Methanoid: I don't have an Amiga set up at the moment, but I'll try out some different screen modes later when I get the chance. I can confirm that DblPal works; there's a photo of it earlier in this thread, but the monitor seemed to be stuck in 'widescreen' mode which didn't look too good.

15khz Amiga VGA RGB Adapter from electronica4u.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/electronika4you/

Attachment 1109

Sold mine for £1 on Amibay.. DOH!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Coates

Kin Hell: I can confirm that the U2410 supports below 30kHz as that was the whole point of this thread!

<snip>

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Sure & I can se that from your earlier pics, but why isn't it included in the Monitor Spec?

Most of the monitors on the Atari forum list do t officially support 15khz but they do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@Kin. It's something Dell have not mentioned in their official docs on most of their monitors that do support lower ranges. It's not mentioned for my u2711 either, but the fact the monitor can sync down to 15kHz via VGA input is true. Plus other inputs such a composite. They also have component inputs capable of 1080p (I run a PS2 and original Xbox using this). Plus lots of other inputs including 2x DVI, HDMI and Display port.

They are very nice monitors, and because they are designed mainly for the design and photography industry they come factory colour calibrated and support AdobeRGB and SRGB colour spaces. Very nice to work with in photoshop and when editing video.

Only downfall that I know would put you off would be the 60Hz refresh rate at the native 2560x1440 on my u2711. But for most of us we really don't notice the difference above this. I used to notice it on CRT a lot and hated running monitors lower than 85Hz because I was sat in front of one all day, but that's due to CRT refresh flicker, which is absent from lcd and led panels. You have to remember though that these monitors are not aimed directly at the gaming market where you will find the only 120Hz+ capable monitors. It's not needed for the design industry.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I reckon its not included in the specs because its probably not intended to be used at 15kHz. Its probably just a by product of the monitor also having TV inputs.

Agreed. Although because the monitor can accept legacy tv inputs it does mean it intentionally supports 15kHz. Although I think most people are surprised the VGA port does as most other monitors don't.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I want to buy a new Dell monitor, as my sight started to worsen since 2 years, I want to get a 27" monitor. I'm just between the Dell S2715H and the Dell U2715H.

Ultrasharp or not? The S model is almost half the price, 239€ compared to 467€. Does anyone have experience with those?

The S is a 1080p model whereas the U has a resolution of 2560x1440. Plus the S model is a glossy, and some people are reporting that it is almost like having a mirror, and they don't like it, the U is matte.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demon Cleaner

I want to buy a new Dell monitor, as my sight started to worsen since 2 years, I want to get a 27" monitor. I'm just between the Dell S2715H and the Dell U2715H.

Ultrasharp or not? The S model is almost half the price, 239€ compared to 467€. Does anyone have experience with those?

The S is a 1080p model whereas the U has a resolution of 2560x1440. Plus the S model is a glossy, and some people are reporting that it is almost like having a mirror, and they don't like it, the U is matte.

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Dont think they have any composite or component so I doubt they work for an Amiga