Formatting 720KB Floppy under XP/Vista

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9th October 2008, 19:50
Harrison

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Formatting 720KB Floppy under XP/Vista
As some of you know, from the introduction of XP onwards it no longer supports the formatting of floppy disks smaller than 1.4MB. So how do we format a DD floppy disk as a 720KB PC disk to use for transferring files to an Amiga?

There are two fairly simple solutions. The first is still built into Windows.

Method 1:
1. Open a new command prompt by going to Start->run and typing CMD
2. Insert your blank floppy disk into the drive.
3. Type Format A: /T:80 /N:9
4. Your floppy disk will be formatted as a 720KB Double Density Floppy Disk ready to be read by an Amiga.
Method 2:
1. Download the program FMT (attached to this post)
2. Extract the FMT.EXE file anywhere on your HD in a location you will remember.
3. Open a new command prompt by going to Start_>run and typing CMD
4. Navigate to the location of the FMT.EXE file on your HD
5. Type FMT A: /f:720
6. Your floppy disk will be formatted as a 720KB Double Density Floppy Disk ready to be read by an Amiga.
Both of these methods work just as well, so it is up to you which one you use.

If you look at the command for the Windows Format command, from XP you now need to specify the number of tracks and number of sectors to format a 720KB disk. Before XP you used to be able to type Format A: /f:720 just as you do for the FMT command. But that now no longer works so you need to specify the tracks and sectors.

The FMT program has some interesting options beyond just formatting a 720KB disk. If you also need to format other sizes it supports many different ones from 360KB up to 1.68KB.

To read a 720KB PC formatted floppy disk in an Amiga you must have a version of CrossDOS installed on your Amiga. This is built into Workbench from version 2.1. If you have an older version of Workbench then you will need to try and get hold of the standalone version of CrossDOS and install it into your copy of Workbench.

With WB2.1+ you first need to mount the PC0: device driver by typing mount PC0: into an Amiga shell. Then you can insert the PC formatted floppy and the Amiga will be able to read and write to it.
9th October 2008, 22:32
Harrison

Something strange I just encountered that I remember being a problem back when I used Amigas as my main system was how fussy they are at reading PC formatted floppy disks.

I just formatted a 720KB disk on a PC, copied some files onto it, put it into the Amiga, the Amiga recognised it as a PC disk, I could access the contents, but when i tried to copy them onto the Amiga HD Workbench threw up CRC and cyclic redundancy error messages.

So I remembered that sometimes formatted the disk on the PC didn't always work, so I formatted it again as a PC disk from the Amiga. But then the PC couldn't read the disk!

So next I tried formatting the disk on the PC again and the same thing happened again. Same read errors on the Amiga.

Finally I formatted the disk as a standard 880KB Amiga disk, then formatted it again on the Amiga as a PC disk. This time the PC read the disk perfectly well, and when I copied some files onto the disk the Amiga read and copied the files perfectly to its HD.

So what causes this strange behaviour? Does the Amiga sometimes not really format the disk completely if it thinks the disk is already in the right format, so the PC has trouble understanding it? And why would formatted the disk on the PC cause read errors when the Amiga tries to read it? Strange. For a moment I thought the Amiga's drive as dying!
10th October 2008, 12:48
woody.cool

Are you using DD or HD disks?
HD disks (with the hole taped over to make it be recognised as a DD disk), don't work as reliably when used as DD (720KB/880KB) disks - it's best that you use proper DD disks.
10th October 2008, 14:37
Harrison

I'm using real DD disks. I first tried with a used disk from my Amiga disk boxes, but when that cause read errors on the Amiga I thought the disk might be old and damaged so I opened up a new pack of Sony DD floppy disks (I've a few packs of 10 Sony DD disks still sealed) and the same errors happened until I first formatted the disk as an Amiga disk and then as a PC disk. Since doing that it has worked perfectly.
10th October 2008, 15:24
woody.cool

How odd indeed
20th October 2008, 10:50
Namida

Thank you

You saved my day.
I just bought a 1200 but I had no way to transfer driver files from the PC.
20th October 2008, 12:11
Tiago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namida

You saved my day.
I just bought a 1200 but I had no way to transfer driver files from the PC.

Welcome to Classicamiga, Namida!!

Introduce yourself in "member introdutions"

see ya
22nd October 2008, 19:59
Puni/Void

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namida

You saved my day.
I just bought a 1200 but I had no way to transfer driver files from the PC.

Hi Namida,

Welcome to the Classicamiga forum. :) Hope you'll enjoy the board.
22nd October 2008, 21:39
JLPedro

I personaly use a program called Winimage http://www.winimage.com/winimage.htm, does all sort of floppy format and floppy image manipulation.
5th November 2008, 14:28
kromur

Mothod 1 makes my floppies unreadable both by my pc and my amiga 500, i will try method 2...
5th November 2008, 16:04
Harrison

Are you using Double Density floppy disks? Or High Density (HD) 1.44MB Floppy Disks? If you are using the HD floppies then you will need to cover the additional hole with some tape before formatting the disk on a PC or it will cause issues. And HD floppies are not reliable when used in an Amiga anyway.

Otherwise I'm not sure why method 1 wouldn't work.
8th November 2008, 02:22
alexg75

FMT

Brilliant, I didn't know this existed! But it's just what I need.

Thanks for posting this.

Alex
(a brand new a1200 owner)
:fool:
13th November 2008, 16:50
Namida

How weird

I managed to transfer the first files from PC to Amiga, thanks to all.
But now I need to transfer files (size is between 4 and 8MB), so I bought a PCMCIA CompactFlash adaptor with a 512MB CF card.

I managed to install fat95 (just one double-click !) and PCMCIA CF drivers from a 3.5" floppy.
When I insert the FAT16 formated CF card, the CF0 drive is correctly mounted.

But when I copy files to the CF card and try to read them from the PC, the CF is empty !!
A right click on the card tells me that some space is used, but files are nowhere.

I tried to copy files from the PC to the CF, and then read them on the Amiga : and how weird ! I cannot see them (although Work Bench tells me that available space has decreased).
Looks like the same CF space is shared between the PC and Amiga, but file directory is not the same.

Can someone understand that ?
I tried with another CF, and it was the same behavior.

I hope this post is not off topic !
Thanks for your imaginative help !
I really need some in order to dump games and send them to SPS.
13th November 2008, 23:12
Harrison

I've not tried using CF cards with an Amiga yet, but I'm guessing it is something to do with the different file systems between the two OSs.

Even though you can't see the Amiga files on the PC, are the Amiga files still there and accessible again when you reconnect the CF card to the Amiga?

If so then you could try accessing the CF card on the PC using the emulator WinUAE. In fact you could format the CF card on the Amiga as an Amiga HD, and then mount the CF card on the PC in WinUAE as an HD to access it. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work.

And to copy the files so they can be accessed on the PC create a new directory on the PC and then set this as a directory based HD in WinUAE. You can then copy files from the CF card to the PC directory HD using Workbench loaded in WinUAE. And once copied you will be able to access the files from the PC directory.
14th November 2008, 13:32
Namida

Thank you

I'll try this as soon as I am back home (in a few days).

I tried to format the CF under the Workbench, but all I could do is a quick format, not a complete one (it says that block 0 could not be read or something).

And yes I plug back the CF in the Amiga, I can see the files that was previously copied from the Amiga, even I copied files from the PC after.

Another interesting thing : I can choose a different name (label) for the CF under the Amiga and under the PC !
14th November 2008, 13:45
Buleste

The other one is have you tried using the latest version of CrossDOS? It may be that although you have FAT95 installed as the CF is not set as a CrossDOS device the Amiga is writing onto an Amiga formatted card whilst the PC is trying to write onto a PC formatted card and so the files cannot be read by the other machine. All you may need to do is copy the CF0 device open up an editor and load the copy and edit it so that the file system is set to crossdosfilesystem, change the file name from "Copy_of_CF0" to "DCF0" and reboot. Hopefully then when you insert a FAT16 or FAT32 formatted CF it should show up and be fully usable by both PC and Amiga.
14th November 2008, 15:57
Harrison

Can you hot swap CF cards in an Amiga? I was led to believe they are seen by the system as another HD and need to be swapped over before switching the system on.

I think a page about using CF cards on an Amiga is definitely needed on the Wiki. We can then include such information and answers to questions. Plus installation guides and FAQs.
14th November 2008, 16:02
Buleste

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrison

Can you hot swap CF cards in an Amiga? I was led to believe they are seen by the system as another HD and need to be swapped over before switching the system on.

"What you talkin' 'bout Willis?":hmmm:

I was on about using the CF as a crossdos hard drive not hot swapping. That way both PC and Amiga will be able to use the CF.
14th November 2008, 16:11
Harrison

It was just a question I had. Not directly related to the formatting of the cards.

Would be great to utilise CF or SD cards are removable storage for the Amiga that can be hot swapped for file transfer.

Has anyone ever managed to get a multi format card reader working with an Amiga? Either an IDE or USB version. Obviously you would need drivers.
14th November 2008, 19:00
Buleste

Strictly speaking you could get the Card reader allowing hot swapping if it was recognised as removable media like ZIP or JAZ disks but it would be a hardware thing and as the card readers are mostly designed for internal use the hot swapping of the IDE versions would be impractical. It would be easier to do for PCMCIA versions though.
14th November 2008, 23:36
Harrison

I could never get hot swapping to work for zip disks on my A4000 and a scsi zip100 drive. It always used to work like an HD where I had to put a disk in the drive before booting the system. If I tried to swap them over while the system was on it got confused, asking for the old disk and not recognising any new ones. Any ideas?
15th November 2008, 09:22
Buleste

I had a scsi version on my old Blizzard scsiIV and it worked fine but at the moment I use the IDE version which treats the ZIP drive like a large floppy drive. There is a zip controller programme that you can use which allows you to eject disks but it always seemed a stupid way to do things to me as it's easier pressing the eject button than finding a programme, running it and the clicking the eject command. This is a similar sort of commodity to do that.
15th November 2008, 13:14
Namida

That makes sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buleste

May be that although you have FAT95 installed as the CF is not set as a CrossDOS device the Amiga is writing onto an Amiga formatted card whilst the PC is trying to write onto a PC formatted card and so the files cannot be read by the other machine.

Thank you for the hint !
I am new to Amiga 1200 so I am not sure what to use for editing the file and what to change into the file, but I think it will be okay (there is enough documentation and posts to read around).

Anyway I'll post the result as soon as I am back home in a few days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrison

Has anyone ever managed to get a multi format card reader working with an Amiga? Either an IDE or USB version. Obviously you would need drivers.

I am not sure to understand.
But I think the CF was not seen as a HD as I could remove it and insert another one while the WB was runing without any problem.
It was like inserting a normal floppy.
Also it wasn't seen has a HD as it wasn't listed when opening HD toolbox (cannot remember the exact name, I used it once for preparing the HD with the WB Install floppy).

Just to be clear : I use the PCMCIA port with a CF reader, not the IDE port.
16th November 2008, 18:35
Harrison

I can't use a PCMCIA version as I have a network card on that. I have read that you can use card readers with a USB controller on the Amiga. So adding a USB port seems the best solution for me. But the controller cards for USB are expensive so I probably won't go for that.
19th November 2008, 05:17
Namida

Still stucked

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buleste

The other one is have you tried using the latest version of CrossDOS? It may be that although you have FAT95 installed as the CF is not set as a CrossDOS device the Amiga is writing onto an Amiga formatted card whilst the PC is trying to write onto a PC formatted card and so the files cannot be read by the other machine. All you may need to do is copy the CF0 device open up an editor and load the copy and edit it so that the file system is set to crossdosfilesystem, change the file name from "Copy_of_CF0" to "DCF0" and reboot. Hopefully then when you insert a FAT16 or FAT32 formatted CF it should show up and be fully usable by both PC and Amiga.

All right.
I didn't know how to edit the CF0 file, so I copied to a FAT16 formated floppy disk, and did the edtition on my PC (using notepad).
I changed the following :
FileSystem = L:fat95
Device = compactflash.device
to
FileSystem = L:CrossDOSFileSystem
Device = compactflash.device

First I tied to rename it to DCF0 (renamed also CF0.info to DCF0.info), and put it into the DosDrivers folder of DEVS.
But when booting the Amiga, I got two devices mounted and both were fat95 devices.
Then I removed CF0 and booted again.
This time the compact flash was mounted as a CrossDos device, just like when you insert a fat16 formated floppy.

But unfortunately I doesn't change anything.
Files copied to the CF cannot be viewed by the PC, and files copied from the PC cannot be viewed by the Amiga.

I also tried to change the PC0 file instead of the CF0.
I had same result (CF is mounted as a crossdos device but is still not compatible).

Any suggestion ?
Is there anybody who is using a compact flash card with a PCMCIA adaptor and exchanging files between Amiga and PC this way ?
19th November 2008, 09:03
Buleste

I'm sorry that hasn't helped. It looks like the FAT95 and CrossDOS devices are doing the same thing so you are probably better off sticking to the FAT95 version until you get a copy of CrossDOS7 and can use the FAT32 file system. I'm not sure what's going on with it I'm afraid. In theory you should be able to swap files with ease but for some reason that's not happening and I don't know why either sorry.
20th November 2008, 14:21
Harrison

This is a strange one. I've been experimenting with formatted 720KB DD floppy disks on PCs and Amigas and am still getting regular CRC read errors on the Amiga, and complete disks not being read on the PCs.

Does anyone have any ideas why? I'm using XP on all of the PCs I've so far tried this with, and the Amigas are either an A600 with KS3.1 and WB2.1 or an A1200 with KS3.1 and WB3.1.

Formatting PC floppies always used to work years ago. I used it regularly to take work between University and home in the mid 90's and never had an issue. Could it be Windows XP related? I'm thinking that is the only difference these days because I used to always be using Windows 98 back in the 90's to format or read PC formatted floppies to transfer files over to an Amiga.

I'm going to fire up my old P2 system when I get time as it has Windows 98 installed on it and see what happens if I try transfering files between that and a PC.

Maybe it is finally time for me to ditch the floppy to transfer files and stick a CF card reader in all the Amigas.
20th November 2008, 14:28
Buleste

It's nothing to do with XP as I've formatted disks on my 1200 and used them to transfer from my PC with no problems. It may be your floppy drive that has the problem. Have you tried it on different FDD's?
20th November 2008, 16:16
Harrison

I've tried a variety of different DD floppy disks and a variety of different Amigas and PC floppy disk drives. All with the same CRC errors. Is very strange.
27th November 2008, 06:15
Namida

Found what was wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buleste

I'm sorry that hasn't helped. It looks like the FAT95 and CrossDOS devices are doing the same thing so you are probably better off sticking to the FAT95 version until you get a copy of CrossDOS7 and can use the FAT32 file system. I'm not sure what's going on with it I'm afraid. In theory you should be able to swap files with ease but for some reason that's not happening and I don't know why either sorry.

I thought I needed to format the compact flash card on a PC (because it must be FAT16), but in fact if I do so then files cannot be read on the Amiga.
So there was only one thing I should have tried earlier : formating the CF on Amiga !

The problem is maybe due to my PC (running XP) ?
Because I couldn't find anywhere that the CF *must* be formated on Amiga and not PC.

Problem solved.
Thank you all for your support :notworthy:
27th November 2008, 07:26
Buleste

Glad to hear it's finally solved. Strange problem though.
8th June 2010, 14:34
florealworld

Thnx

use full
26th October 2010, 15:48
Harrison

That is the problem now. The Floppy drive is obsolete and out of date. No new systems use them or have them installed. I don't bother including them in new system builds. but for anyone interested in retro computers they all use floppy drives and we need a way to transfer files. At the moment we can source drives, but I can see this becoming more of a problem in the next few years as manufacturers stop making floppy drives and the disks.
6th November 2010, 22:08
Vangar

An idea might be to purchase 2 brand new USB floppy drives, keep them in a safe place unopened in their packaging. Then when the time comes to replace, you have 2 more.