Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?

[Harrison]

Which of the two High Definition Disc formats do you ultimately see winning the battle and becoming the next standard of Video Disc that replaces DVD?

And why do you think the one you chose will win in the end?

But please don't just pick one because you hate Sony for example, unless you have a logical argument.

Personally I'm not 100% sure, but I have the feeling the outcome could end up being split with HD-DVD being the most popular in the US and Blu-Ray being the most popular in the UK and maybe Europe.

Why? Easy. In the US they have had HDTV broadcasting for longer than Europe with CRT High Definition TV sets being available in the US long before LCD and Plasma took off, whereas in the UK and Europe such CRT sets were all but non existent. Only with the recent push for HDTV with LCD and Plasma screens dropping in price have the average consumer started to take a real interest in buying into the HD revolution.

And in the US HD-DVD got a head start over Blu-Ray releases with many films already released on the HD-DVD format. I don't know about the rest of Europe, but here in the UK you do not see many films being sold on either format in stores, with only small sections dedicated to them so far. And I've noticed most are Blu-Ray discs.

There is another argument for the split I envisage. Player availability. In the US HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players were released when they came to market. In the UK I'm only just seeing them in stores and at prices high enough to turn away all but the video enthusiasts. This is set to change with the release of PS3 in the UK. For most this new console will be their first way of playing HD video on their TV and they will therefore be buying Blu-Ray discs.

I could be wrong. Who knows. :huh2:

[Demon Cleaner]

I also voted for split standard. As there are already players being released that support both formats, I don't bother which format is going to rule the world afterwards. It's still too early to have a discussion about this, and in 2 years, nobody is concerned about it nomore anyway, as prices will drop under 100$ for a player.

[Stephen Coates]

I'm really not sure as I don't know much about either, ut I have a feeling it will be Blu Ray.

I could of course be completely wrong though.

[rayzorblue]

I went for HD-DVD because im old enough to remember the video wars back in the day which betamax lost not because of inferior quality but because of price and HD-DVD is the cheaper option, of course i also believe pretty soon all these will be defunct as i reckon Films on little memory cards will be available eventually and the way its going you would be able to fit more on one of them in the end especially if it was the size of a DVD.

Probably wrong though i rarely back a winner.

[Harrison]

I also believe that eventually we won't purchase any film on media of any kind. A time will eventually come when the telecoms industry gets of its bum and actually upgrades the networks to the current best technology, and once we all have Internet2 speed fibre connections we will then be able to all connect to true video on demand services that will allow access to the world's film library for a set fee.

But until that time ever happens I still think it will be a split thing for some time to come. Especially after I did some research into Dolby Digital Plus and discovered that HD-DVD states this new audio encoding as the default requirement for the format, whereas Blu-Ray states only DVD quality 5.1 Dolby Digital and Plus as only an optional extra.

[TiredOfLife]

Chose HD-DVD
Cheaper and backed by microsoft.
So expect it to appear in PCs sooner and gather support that way.

[Demon Cleaner]

And as Sony forbids that any kind of pr0n can be released on Blu Ray, you can imagine that HD-DVD can take profit on that market :lol:

[Submeg]

And as Sony forbids that any kind of pr0n can be released on Blu Ray, you can imagine that HD-DVD can take profit on that market :lol:

Well if that were to be true, then its definately going to be HD-DVD ;)

[Harrison]

I didn't know Sony had forbid Pr0n releases on Blu-Ray. Not sure how they could really stop the industry using the format, but if they have then I agree, HD-DVD will definitely win easily.

[LowercaseE]

I do not agree with Sony's "censorship" tactics with Blu-Ray so I hope it fails.

[Submeg]

lol, Lowercase cant get zee pr0n...

[LowercaseE]

If I want pr0n, I'll just download it. But that still doesn't give Sony the right to pass judgement on it.

[J T]

I saw a blu-ray player in a shop the other day. Really wasn't very excited about it.

so, uh,

'poo'-ray

or

H'wee'-DVD

really don't care too much about them at the moment. Too pricey and too much uncertainty.

[Demon Cleaner]

If I want pr0n, I'll just download it.Yeah, and then burn it onto a Blu Ray disc :lol:

[Harrison]

:lol: Perfect! And nothing Sony could do about it. :lol:

[Submeg]

If I want pr0n, I'll just download it. But that still doesn't give Sony the right to pass judgement on it.

And the pr0n director said to Sony: "thy shall not pass judgement on thy pr0n."

And with that, Sony became submissive, and gave in to everyone's demands.

[TiredOfLife]

I can't believe Sony would be that stupid.
Or that their stance would be legal in many countries.

[Harrison]

I think the reason Sony can control the content on Blu-Ray is due to the format being their own. They manufacture the discs, and I expect at the moment it is exclusively Sony production plants that are pressing the Blu-Ray discs. Therefore they have complete quality and content control over the whole format.

This is very similar to the tricks Nintendo have played over the years. When the SNES was around the only way that a game could be given the green light to go into production was to send the gold code to Nintendo for evaluation. Only if Nintendo passed the game as being acceptable for their system was it allowed to go into production, and as the cartridges were manufactured by Nintendo, they kindly adding additional charges to the cost of manufacturing the cartridges for a game. So the games producer and developer were paying Nintendo for the production of each game cartridge even before the game was on the shelves. For Nintendo this was a no lose strategy, but this was also the reason many third party developers didn't continue to develop for Nintendo consoles when the N64 came out. Compared to the PSX the N64 was too expensive to develop for, and even then you had no guarantee that your game would get a release if the final code was rejected by Nintendo.

Could the same happen to Blu-Ray with Sony following similar tactics?

[Demon Cleaner]

Isn't that also why console games are more expensive than PC games? PS2 game = 60€, PC game = 40€. Publisher paying Sony an extra charge, thus making games more expensive.

[J T]

Isn't that also why console games are more expensive than PC games? PS2 game = 60€, PC game = 40€. Publisher paying Sony an extra charge, thus making games more expensive.

They charge what they can get away with, the rip-off merchant bastards *shakes fist*

[Submeg]

Tell me about it! Utter rubbish

[Harrison]

The problem is that if they didn't add a "development" fee into the sale of each game for their systems then the initial price of each console would be a lot more. How do you think Nintendo are managing to sell the Wii for such a low price? Because they are making a lose on its manufacturing costs, and recouping the cost from the sale of software. The same is true of most consoles throughout history.

[J T]

Everywhere I've seen says Nintendo actually make a profit (if only small) on the machine as well, rather than taking the potentially risky route of launching and selling hardware at a loss hoping to recoup with software sales.

[Harrison]

That is indeed true. This is the first generation of new consoles where Nintendo took a completely different approach and managed to manufacture the Wii and make a profit from its sale right from the start. This is mainly down to the last generation hardware as the Will's CPU is basically just a faster version of the older gamecube chip.

[Sharingan]

According to the latest reports, Blu-ray has been consistently outselling HD-DVD for a very long time now. The week after Thanksgiving, BD outsold HD-DVD by 73% to 27% in the States, despite HD-DVD players being offered at absolute bottom prices at the moment (some as low as $98 - an act of desperation, perhaps?).

In Europe and Japan, the situation isn't much different either.

While the relative numbers are in BD's favour, the absolute numbers aren't quite as impressive, as the market for high-definition video is dwarfed by the world of DVD - which is still a hugely popular format.

The deciding factor in the Blu-ray - HD-DVD 'war' will likely be Warner's decision to start exclusively supporting either format (so far, they have been releasing their films on both). Should Warner hop onto the BD train, that would most likely spell the end for the competing party. If Warner chose HD-DVD instead, it would roughly split the market in two, drawing out the war even longer.

[AlexJ]

The Wii being sold out for Christmas and the opportunity to sell more PS3 consoles will no doubt help Blu-Ray.

Back onto your point Sharingan, the low sales of HD-DVD against Blu-Ray may prompt another factor which could help decide the 'war' - either Paramount or Universal deciding that they need to go dual-format in order to keep sales high.

[Harrison]

Sony and the Blu-Ray format do have the big advantage of owning many of the film production companies so films released by those will only ever appear on their own format. These include Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer and the whole of the Columbia Pictures ENtertainment Inc. Which includes such greats as Columbia Pictures and Tristar.

[Submeg]

Whoa :blink: that is alot

[Demon Cleaner]

Transformers f.ex. is only released on HD-DVD.

[AlexJ]

Transformers f.ex. is only released on HD-DVD.

That's because Transformers is a Paramount film, Paramount sticking with HD-DVD for the moment.

The current split is:

Blu-ray

Sony Pictures

* Columbia Pictures
* TriStar Pictures

Buena Vista

* Walt Disney Pictures
* Pixar
* Miramax

Fox Studios

* 20th Century Fox

MGM

Lionsgate
|
HD-DVD

NBC Universal

* Universal Studios

Viacom

* Paramount
* Dreamworks SKG
|
HD-DVD & Blu-Ray

Time Warner

* Warner Brothers
* New Line

[Submeg]

Looks like it shall be over soon...? Where are those pr0n producers at? :cool:

[Buleste]

I think the greatest problem for Blu-Ray is also it's greatest asset. Over 70% of Blu-Ray machines sold are PS3's. I think most people are trying HD-DVD because they know what a DVD is and they think HD stands for HiDef so as far as non tech minded people are concerned HD-DVD is just better quality DVD's whereas BluRay says nothing about what it does as "It sounds more like a Laser Tag game than anything else and as it's being supplied with a games console then thats all it is is a game. Isn't it?" The last bit isn't a quote but it sounds like something that the man on the street would say, but then he's homeless so he doesn't give a toss about electronics unless they are to heat him up. O.K i'm rambling now. I'll go have a lie down....

[AlexJ]

I personally think making a clean break with the title is the better way to go. HD DVD has created confusion with people with HDTV's and standard DVD players purchasing the HD-DVD's and wondering why they don't play. CD's weren't called 'Digital Records'.

[Submeg]

I personally think making a clean break with the title is the better way to go. HD DVD has created confusion with people with HDTV's and standard DVD players purchasing the HD-DVD's and wondering why they don't play. CD's weren't called 'Digital Records'.

Yep that would have stumped me ;)

[TiredOfLife]

We have a winner - Blue Ray.
Say out loud HD DVD disk and then Blue Ray disk.

[Submeg]

so HD DVD sounds like:

'paigh'pH"sFKFHBoibgOJWBFKLADL;W;SLDJBLJKAENlkergfsljdbweunbdlefnvilsekfbc;sgbs;dgfas
sdkfsef;kebkjsabfjsdbfksdbfjksd....

and Blu Ray sounds like:

Blu Ray.

wow, yep I see the point :cool:

[J T]

So by how much were regular old DVDs outselling the fancy new higher-capacity formats?

I'm going to bet it was around 97% regular DVDs, 3% HD formats.

And I think that's being quite generous really.

[Sharingan]

So by how much were regular old DVDs outselling the fancy new higher-capacity formats?

I'm going to bet it was around 97% regular DVDs, 3% HD formats.

And I think that's being quite generous really.


That's about it, I think. The majority of people don't even have a HD capable TV yet, so it'll be a while before high def video starts gaining momentum.

[AlexJ]

That's about it, I think. The majority of people don't even have a HD capable TV yet, so it'll be a while before high def video starts gaining momentum.

There's also the fact that a DVD for a new movie is around £12 while the HDDVD/BluRay version of the same film is around £20. Most people are not going to accept that HD is worth twice the price of the standard film.

[Harrison]

Actually, most DVDs can now be picked up for under £5 only a couple of months after their release, which makes HD formats even less appealing. Also for anyone with an HDTV, the upscaling technology in newer DVD players and HD format players makes the lower resolution DVD images look good enough for all but the most essential films.

Even once I do buy into an HD format, which will most likely be Blu-Ray once I buy a PS3, I won't go mad and buy most of my existing DVD collection again. A lot of films just wouldn't make that much difference or impact at a higher resolution. The exception has to be Sci-Fi, as most in that genre would benefit form the increase resolution and detail and I would re-buy many of those. I might finally be able to see the Millennium Falcon coming in to dock in Star Wars Episode 3!!! :lol:

[Sharingan]

I'm definitely not going to replace my DVDs either, save for the really exceptional titles that simply deserve high definition love.

Not all HD films are of great quality either - it really depends on the source material, and the effort from the company behind the film. Some HD titles end up looking washed out, and not much better than an upscaled DVD. One company that seems to be putting out GREAT quality Blu-rays is Disney/Pixar.

[Harrison]

Pixar have a big advantage because most of their films are digitally rendered for film resolution size anyway so do greatly benefit from HD format sizes.

[Teho]

I thought I wasn't going to rebuy any of my movies, but now I've allready rebought several films on blu-ray. The first two Pirates of The Caribbean movies, and David Gilmour - Remember That Night - Live at The Royal Albert Hall 2006. That is one great concert, but I was a bit disappointed at the DVD release after I bought it when I found that there was no lossless audio track on it. Just two Dolby Digital 2.0 and 5.1 tracks. So when I learned that this concert was out on blu-ray also I ordered it immediately.

Also I rebought A Knight's Tale on blu-ray very early on. Back then there was like twenty movies released in total to choose from, and I allready had most on DVD. Wanting some blu-rays anyway I bought that and another that I didn't allready have.

And of course, I sell the DVD editions once I have the blu-rays so get at least some of it back.

And I have to say that even though the PS3 does a good job at upscaling DVDs, the HD picture on the blu-ray edition of the same movie is miles better. I can understand that people don't want to replace their entire collections, but trust me, once you get started on blu-rays you will be replacing some of your favourites. ;)

[Sharingan]

One trilogy I'm especially looking forward to is LoTR. I've seen the films dozens of times already (cinema 3 times, regular DVD edition a few times, extended cut a couple times more), but I'd watch it again in HD. Imagine also the amount of goodies they can pack into a 50GB BR disc!

I'll also be picking up The Fifth Element soon - very much underrated movie, IMO. I thought it was brilliant fun.

[Harrison]

The fifth element is a brilliant film, and as you say, very underrated. As I said before, I will update films that are definitely worth getting again for the higher quality picture and sound. Most Sci-Fi films especially. 2001 is another I will have to buy if and when it gets a release. Also the first Alien film. Imagine that in HD, and you thought no one could hear you scream in space in SD resolution! :lol:

LoTR in HD would be amazing, that is for sure. As for the mention of 50GB BR discs, I think we need to whisper that because they already increase the length of each part to 4 hours because they had the space to do that on normal DVDs, so image how long they could make them on BR. We could be sitting watching the trilogy for days! :lol:

But for me the greatest films they can release on BR would be the Star Wars and Star Trek films. But I have the feeling we might be waiting some time for both to appear, especially considering how long we had to wait for them on DVD.

[Submeg]

Hmm, I think my dad may start replacing some of the dvds....Im not a dvd nut, only music.

[Sharingan]

Got some Blu-ray discs for Christmas, and man ... I'm impressed. I knew there would be a jump in picture quality over DVD, but wasn't prepared to see such an improvement. Teho was absolutely right when he said BD can't really be compared to even an upscaled DVD.

While watching the high-def movies, I had to constantly stop myself from pausing the playback just to take in the detail of certain scenes. Distant objects that appeared as shapeless blobs on DVD actually look good and distinguishable now. It's definitely a whole different experience.

Consequently, I went to the AVS forums to read up a bit about Blu-ray technology and current developments, and imagine my surprise when it was stated there that the PS3 is currently actually the best Blu-ray player available when it comes to picture quality - even better than standalone BD players that cost the same or more!



Does the PS3 have the best video quality of Blu-Ray players?
Nothing is definitive, but most agree that it does. Additionally, it now offers 1080/24p output, which not all standalone Blu-ray players do.

How could that be possible? It is so inexpensive compared to other players.
While that is true, Sony is known to be subsidizing the PS3, while the other players are not subsidized. Sony wants to ensure the future of both Blu-Ray and PS3, so while this loses them money in the short term, theoretically, it will be a financial win in the long term.

For more info, Sound and Vision magazine has shoot out of the first batch of Blu-Ray players here . I'll ruin the ending, PS3 wins.


So, while I was already considering getting me a standalone player for the living room, I'm now for the moment simply keeping my PS3 there, or maybe even getting a second one just for movie playback :thumbs:

[Demon Cleaner]

So what movies did you exactly watch? There are many movies out on BluRay that are not worth buying, as the normal DVD has the same quality, I even read something about that on the movie 300, which is apparently not better on BluRay. Sadly, would be a breathtaking journey.

[Sharingan]

There's a very nice thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858316) over on the AVS forums where movies are ranked into categories, based on picture quality. They use some kind of Tier system, Tier 0 being the absolute best Blu-rays (flawless, basically demonstration material), and Tier 5 being generally poor (ie. on par with or only just edging out an upscaled DVD).

There are also some high definition video review sites out there such as http://www.highdefdigest.com (http://www.highdefdigest.com/) which review BD films, and score them based on factors such as picture quality, audio quality, extras, as well as the movie itself.

So, by looking at these, I can get a general impression on whether it's worthwhile to buy a BD title over its cheaper DVD counterpart.

I don't have '300' yet, and yes, there has been talk about the high-def version of the film being less than perfect. Apparently, because the source material has this intentionally, exaggerated grainy look, it just doesn't look very nice when viewed in high resolution.

As for the films I've seen on BD so far, I have gotten Dinosaur (a Pixar animation), Kung-Fu Hustle, Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut, the Harry Potter 5-in-1 gift box set and Letters from Iwo Jima. All these look top notch, except maybe the first Harry Potter which has a very 'soft' feel to it - but still far better than DVD.

I'm hoping to get a few more discs sometime next week, probably the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy (which supposedly has a VERY good picture quality), the Spiderman trilogy, The Fifth Element and Ratatouille.

[Teho]

I have 300, it was one of the first blu-rays I got. And it's true that it doesn't look very good. It's as Sharingan says, they decided to add a grainy effect on this film to make it more reminiscent of the graphic novel it's based on. The picture on the blu-ray is as sharp as ever, but unfortunately this makes the grainyness stand out like a sore thumb. I never saw this movie on DVD or in cinemas, so I don't know how this looks in other formats. Might not be much better for all I know.

This is definitely one of the exceptions though. I can't believe the claim that many movies on blu-ray aren't any better quality than the DVD version. Every one I've watched is as I said, miles ahead. Also don't forget that you have uncompressed PCM audio tracks on almost all if not all releases.

The Pirates of The Caribbean Trilogy is a good example. I have all three on blu-ray now, but also bought the first two on DVD initially. And while these movies are among the better looking ones on DVD, they can't match the blu-rays. There are so many small details in these movies that are lost on the DVDs, they really stand out as the textbook example of how even the best-looking DVDs still look flat and dull when put next to their HD counterparts.

[Sharingan]

Yeah, the sound has definitely improved by a boatload. Even on my cheapo speakers, the sound effects are infinitely more crisp and detailed. Bass also seems a lot fuller (sometimes too much so). I haven't paid much attention to sound while watching DVDs, but right now, it's kind of hard not to.

Also improved by a lot are subtitles. Whereas DVD subs look pixelated and aliased viewed on a HD TV, Blu-ray subs are nicely rounded and smooth like baby buttocks. Plus, there's often a huge selection of languages available - imagine my surprise when I found Chinese subtitles available on some of the movies. This ain't a big deal for most people, but it's nice when, for example, my parents can watch and understand some of the films as well.

I got Tekkon Kinkreet yesterday. Haven't watched it yet, but it's supposed to be ace :)

[v85rawdeal]

Are you saying that us adults have pixelated buttocks?

[Buleste]

My buttocks are pure fat.

[Sharingan]

Remember v85rawdeal ... NO MORE WITTY COMMENTS!


Thank you for your cooperation.

-The Committee for Repeated Poster-of-the-Month Winning Prevention

[v85rawdeal]

I think the name should be C.R.A.P.P.

Committee for Repeatedly Annoying Poster-of-the-month Prevention!

[Submeg]

Yes, I am currently the no 1. shareholder :evil:

[Sharingan]

Well, it looks like the Blu-ray/HD DVD war is now 'officially' coming to an end.

Warner Bros, the last 'neutral' film studio, has just announced that it will be dropping support for HD DVD and start publishing for Blu-ray exclusively. This will give BR an approximate 70% share of the high def movie market. This, coupled with both hardware and disc sales being dominated by Blu-ray worldwide over the past year, basically spells the end for the competing format.

Perhaps this is the move that was needed to finally push high definition video into the mainstream!



January 4, 2008 – Burbank, CA) – In response to consumer demand, Warner Bros. Entertainment will release its high-definition DVD titles exclusively in the Blu-ray disc format beginning later this year, it was announced today by Barry Meyer, Chairman & CEO, Warner Bros. and Kevin Tsujihara, President, Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group.

“Warner Bros.’ move to exclusively release in the Blu-ray disc format is a strategic decision focused on the long term and the most direct way to give consumers what they want,” said Meyer. “The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger. We believe that exclusively distributing in Blu-ray will further the potential for mass market success and ultimately benefit retailers, producers, and most importantly, consumers.”

Warner Home Video will continue to release its titles in standard DVD format and Blu-ray. After a short window following their standard DVD and Blu-ray releases, all new titles will continue to be released in HD DVD until the end of May 2008.
“Warner Bros. has produced in both high-definition formats in an effort to provide consumer choice, foster mainstream adoption and drive down hardware prices,” said Jeff Bewkes, President and Chief Executive Officer, Time Warner Inc., the parent company of Warner Bros. Entertainment. “Today’s decision by Warner Bros. to distribute in a single format comes at the right time and is the best decision both for consumers and Time Warner.”

“A two-format landscape has led to consumer confusion and indifference toward high definition, which has kept the technology from reaching mass adoption and becoming the important revenue stream that it can be for the industry,” said Tsujihara. “Consumers have clearly chosen Blu-ray, and we believe that recognizing this preference is the right step in making this great home entertainment experience accessible to the widest possible audience. Warner Bros. has worked very closely with the Toshiba Corporation in promoting high definition media and we have enormous respect for their efforts. We look forward to working with them on other projects in the future.”

[AlexJ]

I think the problem is, that they've taking so long, people's experiences of watching HD films are more likely to come from HD television channels rather than from the discs. With the major broadcasters in the UK all launching their HD channels in the next few months, the film studios needed to pick a format soon. WB look like they've made the choice for the industry.

[Sharingan]

I don't know ... people are by nature collectors. We like to own things like shiny disc cases and cover art. That's an aspect that HD television can't replace. Moreover, does the current cable infrastructure allow the ultra high bitrates required to play a 1080p movie flawlessly?

I just don't see television really competing with a disc format - after all, the DVD did just fine as well.

Other things that are to be taken into account:

- Movies appear sooner on disc after the theater run ends
- Discs can be replayed as many times as one wants
- Can one pause a movie on television?
- Extras

I'm assuming HD-capable recorders aren't widely available and affordable just yet.


On another note, New Line Cinema will be going Blu-exclusive as well. Unsurprising, since TimeWarner is their parent company.

[AlexJ]

I was going to ask about New Line. Lord Of The Rings in 1080p on Blu-Ray it is then :)

I wasn't implying HDTV would replace Blu-Ray as a HD video distribution method, just pointing out that they were taking so long, TV was likely to be people first experience of a HD film at home. Although in answer to your question one can pause a movie on television and watch as many times as one wants. 1080i is the current format used by Sky, Channel 4 and the BBC for films, so it's not quite as high quality as the Blu-Ray. Well unless the Blu-Ray is also 1080i:

Was going to buy Planet Earth on Blu-Ray the other day, as it had looked spectacular in SD when it was first broadcast so figured the HD version would be the perfect showcase for HDTV. However reading into it, the BBC have inexplicably opted for a 1080i transfer! The US release is in 1080p so why the hell have they opted for a lower quality release over here?

[Harrison]

Other things that are to be taken into account:

- Movies appear sooner on disc after the theater run ends
- Discs can be replayed as many times as one wants
- Can one pause a movie on television?
- Extras

I'm assuming HD-capable recorders aren't widely available and affordable just yet.


Sky HD has a built in Harddrive as standard using the Sky+ features. This means you can record HD programs to the HD to watch as often as you like, as well as pausing live TV if you needed to leave the room, and also if you have been watching the same channel for a while you can rewind whatever you are watching by up to 30 minutes which is great if you missed something.

It is however true that the discs do contain interactive extras that are not provided via the broadcasts, but how many of us actually watch the extras on most discs? Or maybe just once.

[Stephen Coates]

I don't use the extras that much. Interactive stuff was actually one of someones argument for why VHS is better than DVD on another website. VHS doesn't contain (m)any pointless extras.

I take it that if I want a high definition player, I should go for blu ray then?

Why are we having to think about recorders? It was only a few years since DVD recorders actually became affordable.

[Harrison]

I take it that if I want a high definition player, I should go for blu ray then?

Yes. And Blu-Ray recorders are the way forward for high def recording to disc too. I've not looked to see how much the standalone BR recorders are now, but the BR-RW PC drives are now under £200, so are dropping in price at about the same rate as DVD-RW drives did early on.


Why are we having to think about recorders? It was only a few years since DVD recorders actually became affordable.

That is because removable recordable media is inconvenient and costs the user money each time they want to record something new. Being able to record to a built in HD is much better when you are just recording stuff to watch later, and it doesn't cost anything extra. Removable media recorders are slowly moving to off-line recording devices, where you use them to move things from the HD recorder that you wish to keep.

HD recorders built into the viewing device (Sky+, Freeview recorders etc...) also have the advantage of adding additional transport controls for live TV. The ability to pause the TV channel and resume it (buffering the channel on the HD), being able to rewind live channels you are watching etc...

Sky+ also has other advantages over an external recorder such as VHS or DVD. When you record something onto the HD it also records it in 5.1 surround sound (if being broadcast for that program), as well as recording the subtitles and audio description tracks (if available). So when watching it back you can switch these on and off. It also records the details of the program as held in the programs information, so you can instantly call up the program synopsis and other details about it.

[Stephen Coates]

When I was saying about recorders, I was actually on about Blu ray recorders.

We now have a freeview hard disk recorder, and I have found the time shifting funcionality very convenient. And I know just how very inconveniant it is to use it to record something and not be able to take the media out and watch it elsewhere. If everyone had a hard disk recorder, and no one had DVD/tape recorders, then it would be very awkward to give a recording to someone else, or to watch it in another location, or to store it for viewing in the future. I have VHS tapes dating back to the mid 90s, which if they had been recorded onto an HD would have had to be deleted long ago to make room for new stuff, whereas with tapes and DVD etc you can just buy new ones.

I do still love the pause facility though. Therefore, the HD recorder on it's own will never be a complete replacement for the VHS/DVDR, but can quite easily complement it.


Yes. And Blu-Ray recorders are the way forward for high def recording to disc too. I've not looked to see how much the standalone BR recorders are now, but the BR-RW PC drives are now under £200, so are dropping in price at about the same rate as DVD-RW drives did early on.

Are blue ray players for computer likely to be better than ones for TV at the moment, like because of prices, and because of the high resolution of computer monitors?

[Harrison]

You would need a way to get the Hi Def signal into the PC, and software to record that to the HD or BR drive. So it might work out more expensive than using a standalone BR recorder. Also remember you also need to be able to pick up HD broadcasts, which at the moment is limited to SkyHD and Cable. Both having HD recording built in as standard.

[Stephen Coates]

And for playing high definition videos? which I think is something I would be much more interested in doing than recording them.

[toomanymikes]

I was on Hidef digest (http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=33733) forums earlier to read what folk had to say about the Warner announcement. Basically the Blu ray supporters are saying 'this is the end of the format war' and the HD DVD supporters are calling this a bit underhand (despite the paramount deal last year). Anyhoos, its all a bit fanatical as these things can be but it really reminded me of the old ST / A500 arguments we used to have as kids. You should have a read if your looking to waste some time - quite funny. :D

[v85rawdeal]

This a very similar situation as to what happened with Betamax and VHS.

The truth was that Betamax was by far the better format, but was let down by the higher prices of the video recorders (that and the fact that VHS flows off the tongue so much easier than Betamax). Betamax went on to be the standard used by the television industry because of the quality of the system, and VHS went on to become the home system, because of the cheaper prices.

Be interesting to see if history repeats itself

[Buleste]

All i know is that no matter what format i get it will be the one that fails.

[Stephen Coates]

Maybe we should just wait a few years and stick with DVD for now. At least then we won't end up getting a failed format. Although it might be good in 20 years time if HDDVD did fail and you can say, 'I have an old HDDVD player'.

[Sharingan]

I was on Hidef digest (http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=33733) forums earlier to read what folk had to say about the Warner announcement. Basically the Blu ray supporters are saying 'this is the end of the format war' and the HD DVD supporters are calling this a bit underhand (despite the paramount deal last year). Anyhoos, its all a bit fanatical as these things can be but it really reminded me of the old ST / A500 arguments we used to have as kids. You should have a read if your looking to waste some time - quite funny. :D


Heh ... yeah, I had a great time reading some of the flamefests there right after the WB announcement. You'd think some of these people had shares in the companies on either side of the fence, judging by the way they were flying at each other's throat.

As for the format war as it is right now, I suppose it can be said with certainty that HD DVD won't be able to survive long. No one in their right mind would continue to buy hardware and software knowing that what they bought will be obsolete within a year. Whether BR can step up and actually become the standard to replace DVD remains the big question, considering how dominant DVD still is, and the availability of such technologies as HD cable television and HD download services.

Personally, I hope that high definition video does become mainstream, so that prices come down. After experiencing movies in these high resolution, it's kind of hard to go back to SDTV.

[Harrison]

This a very similar situation as to what happened with Betamax and VHS.

The truth was that Betamax was by far the better format, but was let down by the higher prices of the video recorders (that and the fact that VHS flows off the tongue so much easier than Betamax). Betamax went on to be the standard used by the television industry because of the quality of the system, and VHS went on to become the home system, because of the cheaper prices.

Be interesting to see if history repeats itself

There is a big difference between then and now though.

At the time of Betamax and VHS, broadcast companies were still mainly using film to record their footage, and for editing. Video was a relatively new format and so the industry sat up and really took notice because of the convenience and lower costs associated with video compared to film (no developing needed, and tape to tape editing).

In contrast, the Broadcast HD formats are fully in place and have been long before home formats began. This was because digital recording technology was already invented to take over from film based cameras for the film industry, and so the lower resolution HDTV format cameras filtered down from that technology. So Sony, JVC and others have been making Broadcast HD equipment for some time.

The other major difference is the actual formats. Video was designed as a recording format, as well as a playback format. BR and HD-DVD, as well as the older DVD are all final playback formats that use quite heavy lossy compression with keyframes instead of storing every frame recorded. They are designed for end of the line playback and consumer recording. These are no good for broadcast editing where uncompressed or lossless formats are needed to prevent degradation when editing and the ability to edit footage at a frame by frame level.


Maybe we should just wait a few years and stick with DVD for now. At least then we won't end up getting a failed format. Although it might be good in 20 years time if HDDVD did fail and you can say, 'I have an old HDDVD player'.

If we all thought in that way technology would stall and wouldn't keep moving forward. If everyone waited all new technology would fail as no one would buy into it at the initial higher retail prices, which in turn funds its continued development to bring costs down and to improve the technology.


As for the format war as it is right now, I suppose it can be said with certainty that HD DVD won't be able to survive long. No one in their right mind would continue to buy hardware and software knowing that what they bought will be obsolete within a year. Whether BR can step up and actually become the standard to replace DVD remains the big question, considering how dominant DVD still is, and the availability of such technologies as HD cable television and HD download services.

Personally, I hope that high definition video does become mainstream, so that prices come down. After experiencing movies in these high resolution, it's kind of hard to go back to SDTV.

Me too. People have on the whole been quite slow to adopt hi def into their homes. And amusingly I've spoken to a lot of people since Christmas who decided to finally upgrade their TV's to a nice big flatscreen HD one. But then I've asked them what they have it connected to and they just say "it has freeview built in", so in fact they have just bought an HDTV to watch SDTV on and they don't understand! Oh dear! And this seems to be becoming more and more commonplace. They are buying the new TV because of the hype of HD, but not understanding what it actually is, or the actual options for watching live broadcasts or recordings in HD. Others I spoke to comment how much better their DVDs now look in HD! Using their same old DVD player (ie no upscaling) Hmm... They just don't get it.

[Stephen Coates]

Whats this about broadcasting requiring stuff to not be compressed? I regulaly watch the news on ITV and some stuff is clearly compressed. As was some of the recent stuff in Corronation Street, where they were in the Lake District. I have also seen a few programmes on the BBC which have been compressed, but these were some of the programmes that they have on in the morning which arn't really worth watching.

[Harrison]

You misunderstand Steve. The TV programs you watch are all compressed for digital broadcasting. Uncompressed footage would be much too large and require huge bandwidths to deliver.

What I'm talking about is broadcast equipment, not broadcasting equipment. Broadcast equipment is the name given to professional equipment used to make programs. So the cameras, lenses, recording equipment, sound equipment, video editing etc... This is all lossless or uncompressed so it can be edited easily.

It is only at the end of the whole production process that the final edit is then converted into it's final format ready to be broadcast to your TV set.

[Stephen Coates]

Why would they compress it for digital broadcasting when they are broadcasting it using analogue?

[AlexJ]

Why would they compress it for digital broadcasting when they are broadcasting it using analogue?

It's possibly digitsed and compressed when they send it to the transmission site. Oh and as for the news, lots of that will be sent via. satellite (and system. occasionally broadband) so is compressed slightly before being sent to the studios. All pre-recorded stuff though on the big channels is usually done on Digibeta at a bitrate (I believe) of around 90Mb/s so there the compression artifacts are definitely not coming from there!

[Harrison]

Everything is digital these days, except once it reaches the old analogue transmitters, and then it is turned into an analogue broadcast.

[Stephen Coates]

I knew the news would be compressed when sent via satellite, but I still don't understand the compression in corronation street the other day.

[Harrison]

Well, you are talking about Corronation street! Does that even deserve it's own dedicated bandwidth?

Everything is compressed in some way through it's travels. And most broadcast transmitters are receiving their feeds via satellite.

[AlexJ]

I knew the news would be compressed when sent via satellite, but I still don't understand the compression in corronation street the other day.

Because on it's way from the ITV playout centre in Chiswick to the Emley Moor transmitter it will be a digital signal. Only at the Emley Moor site will it be decoded back into analogue ready for broadcast.

[Stephen Coates]

No, it was only the scenes when they were in the lake district. The scenes that were actually on Coronation street weren't compressed. So they had obviously made the video in the lake district with some kind of compression.

[Harrison]

Maybe the shock of them actually realising the world is bigger than one street distorted the image? ;)

[Sharingan]

Another blow to the HD DVD camp soon to happen?

Financial Times: Paramount poised to drop support for HD DVD (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1&_i_referer=http://www.ft.com/technology&nclick_check=1)

[Harrison]

HD-DVD losing Paramount pictures support is definitely a huge blow, especially if you factor in their parent company Viacom, as they own many other companies too including Dreamworks and the Nickelodeon network.

[Sharingan]

Photos from CES 2008:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8342/blurayvshddvdwar2ed7.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8617/blurayhddvdgc5.jpg


Almost feeling sorry for Toshiba/HD DVD ;)

[AlexJ]

Another blow to the HD DVD camp soon to happen?

Financial Times: Paramount poised to drop support for HD DVD (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1&_i_referer=http://www.ft.com/technology&nclick_check=1)

That would definitely spell game over for HDDVD - Universal aren't going to hang round for long on their own. One of Paramount's biggest films this year, the new Indy film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Kingdom_of_the_Crystal_Skull), is already scheduled for a dual-format release anyway (Spielberg's films are already exempt from Paramount's soon-to-be-ripped-up HD-DVD exclusivity agreement)


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8617/blurayhddvdgc5.jpg

When your forced to hold "BBC Video" up as one of your key partners (With BBC Video a) I can't imagine being that big in the US and b) Being dual-format) you know you've got problems.

[v85rawdeal]

More news from CES.



RITEK HAD one of the coolest things on show at CES, a hybrid BD-R and HD-DVD-R. That was the best, but by no means the only innovative thing it was showing off.
The disc is a burnable Blu-Ray on one side and a burnable HD-DVD on the other. If you are making high def content and want to avoid the format wars, this is a good way to distribute media. They are not out yet, but will be in the not so distant future.
http://images.vnu.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/01/11/ritek-hybrid-bd-hd-dvd-disks/ritek_hybrid.jpg
Ritek also has 2x speed dual layer HD-DVD discs out now, and around late Q1 or early Q2 should have HD-DVD-RW dual layer discs in mass production. They were showing them off at CES, but are not ready for production.
Another cool one they had was a HD-DVD-R and DVD-R-DL combo disc. This one is immensely useful for distribution of video content, you don't have to worry which format the user has, just give them high- and low-def on the same little slice of Lexan.
Ritek also has BD-Rs up to 4x speeds and HD-DVD-Rs up to 2x now, so if you want speed, this outfit can supply the media. As you can see, if you want exotic formats, they can supply them too, no need to take sides in the format war, just do both.


Hmmm, now that's a cat among the pigeons, to be sure!

[Harrison]

The only problem with dual sided media is the danger of easily scratching it. Plus with BR now being so much popular, is there really a need for HD-DVD support? And I bet those blank discs are expensive!

[AlexJ]

While Warner Bros were the only dual-supporting studio, they came up with a combo disc (managing to put both formats on one side at different depths) but no-one else was interested. I can't see these combo-R discs taking off now the format war is more-or-less resolved. For starters you'd need both a HD-DVD-R (how daft does that sound?) and a BR-R drive. Ritek have just wasted their money.

[Harrison]

Well to be fair all Ritek had to do was bond an HD-DVD-R side and a BR-R side together to form the disc, and as both technologies already exist it wouldn't have cost them much extra to develop. The real expensive format would be to develop a single sided dual format writeable disc with the two formats at different layer depths. And as you say, now that BR is near to winning outright it is a pointless development path to continue down.

It amazes me quite a lot how quickly this format war has progressed, especially when you consider the the HD disc formats are still very young in terms of worldwide take-up of high definition technology overall. This is great news for us though as it means we won't get stuck buying into a format that could die.

Blu-Ray has always sounded cool compared to the very boring corporate American sounding HD-DVD.

And do you realise something? Since the Walkman, Sony have tried to invent new storage formats but have failed. Mini-Disc, UMD and Memory Stick to name just three have all been great, but have only ever been used in Sony's own products. Sony have finally invented a disc format that has been embraced by the industry and has taken off as the format of choice for the next generation! I bet they are feeling really happy after so many attempts and failures to capture the main market, and this could really be a new turning point for the fortunes of Sony.

[Sharingan]

One of the main reasons Blu-ray won is quite simple, IMO. Just look at the CES2008 picture I posted earlier.

At the Blu-ray booth, take a look at the companies associated with BR: Sony, Mitsubishi, Sharp, Pioneer, Panasonic, Disney, Dell, Matsushita, Samsung, Philips, TDK, Apple, Hitachi, Hewlett Packard ... basically, the majority of big brand names out there.

Now do the same for the HD DVD side. Er ..... Toshiba. One could argue that Microsoft backed HD DVD too, but what have they really done for HD DVD, except for a few speeches here and there? Rumour has it that Microsoft only sided with HD DVD to oppose the mass-adoption of a high-def format, so that they could have time to push their own agenda, while the two formats fought it out to a stalemate. That agenda being: downloadable media.

Sounds far fetched? Not really. They're already planning on pushing downloadable HD content on the Xbox Live service.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205210258

[J T]

I too have heard that MS only backed HD-DVD to hold off Blu-Ray for a bit, as their main target is going for downloaded content.

Problem is (for us in the UK) that our networks aren't good enough for that sort of thing really.

[AlexJ]

And do you realise something? Since the Walkman, Sony have tried to invent new storage formats but have failed. Mini-Disc, UMD and Memory Stick to name just three have all been great, but have only ever been used in Sony's own products. Sony have finally invented a disc format that has been embraced by the industry and has taken off as the format of choice for the next generation! I bet they are feeling really happy after so many attempts and failures to capture the main market, and this could really be a new turning point for the fortunes of Sony.

Sony did have a major role in creating the CD though along with Phillips which apparently had been a bit of a success. But as you say, UMD,MD,Atrac3,Memory Stick have all been examples of Sony going it alone and failing to an extent.

[v85rawdeal]

And then, just to make things worse... This happened



Toshiba fights bad news with lower prices

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/6957_hda3.jpg

DailyTech brought you steady coverage over the past week concerning the latest news in the HD DVD vs. Blu-ray wars. Unless you've been living under a rock, you by now already know that Warner Bros. made the decision to back Blu-ray exclusively (http://www.dailytech.com/Update+Warner+Bros+to+Become+Bluray+Exclusive/article10233.htm).
The move by Warner Bros. was followed by similar actions from New Line Home Entertainment (http://www.dailytech.com/New+Line+Bluray+Disc+Support+Points+to+LOTR+Fate/article10240.htm) and HBO Home Video (http://www.dailytech.com/HBO+Also+Goes+Bluray+Disc+Exclusive/article10295.htm). Recent stories have even suggested that Paramount is also tossing around the idea of supporting the Blu-ray disc standard (http://www.dailytech.com/Report+Paramount+Could+Drop+HD+DVD+Exclusivity+Support/article10268.htm).
Toshiba apparently doesn't want to go down without a fight and is instead slashing the prices on its HD DVD players. Toshiba's second generation HD-A2 players previously dipped down to the sub-$100 mark during November (http://www.dailytech.com/HD+DVD+Player+to+Break+100+Mark+on+Friday/article9498.htm) -- but that was during the traditional holiday buying season and not truly indicative of regular retail pricing.
Now, Toshiba's third generation 1080i-capable HD-A3 is selling for a mere $139.98 on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A3-720p-1080i-Player/dp/B000U62N1S/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1200250596&sr=8-1). The 1080p-capable HD-A30 is not much more expensive at $179.98 (http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A30-1080p-DVD-Player/dp/B000U6AHYS/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1200250596&sr=8-2). For the price of an Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on, consumers can now purchase a fully-fledged set top box with 1080p support.
Amazon isn't the only retailer with the discounted pricing, however. Tiger Direct is selling the HD-A3 for $129.99 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3304908&CatId=2356) and the HD-A30 for $179.99 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3304910&CatId=2356). There are also reports that Sam’s Club and Costco are selling the HD-A3 for as little as $128.
In addition to the lower prices, customers who purchase Toshiba's HD DVD players are still eligible to receive five free movies via a mail-in rebate -- this is in addition to the two movies, 300 and The Bourne Identity, which come in the box.
It remains to be seen if this move by Toshiba is simply an act of desperation, but the tides are definitely changing and a haze of "Blu" can be seen drifting in from the distance.
For all we know, this could be the last hurrah for HD DVD, so it looks as though Toshiba wants to go out with a bang.

[Sharingan]

Bah. They should just admit defeat and move forward with a single HDM format instead of misleading more people into buying a product that will inevitably be obsolete within a year. If the $99 fire sale of last year couldn't secure them a turnaround in the format war, how on earth can it change anything now with all the bad press going on and minus the support of a couple of studios?

Toshiba is just holding back the mass-adoption of HDM now, and no one gains anything from it ... certainly not the consumer.


Anyway, here's something for a good laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friS4OOcdgQ

[LowercaseE]

It's sad to see Blu-Ray winning (already won?) the format war. I guess people like copy protection, region coding, and paying premiums for a product that is no better than lower priced alternatives.

[Harrison]

Umm... one fact you forgot to mention is one of the reasons Sony had so many on board the Blu-Ray train right from the start. In total 84% of all film studios were signed up to the format at the beginning!

The reason was mainly royalty fees. The DVD Forum stung the film industry with DVD, losing billions of dollars in royalties, and this was set to continue with HD-DVD. Blu-Ray offered them an alternative solution to get away from the DVD Forum and their practices.
Toshiba did have a good start with HD-DVD because their format was based on the existing DVD technology, so production plants didn't need to retool in order to begin manufacture, and this also made the drives cheaper. But without the major support of the film industry it wasn't going anywhere. Blu-Ray on the other hand is a different technology so plants did need to buy in the new equipment and drives were more expensive to make, but once the PS3 production began it was only a matter of time before the formats manufacturing costs began to drop.

As for region encoding. To date around 2/3 of all BR discs are not region encoded.

[LowercaseE]

That may be about the region coding, but you can bet if BR does become the standard, that will cahnge. I'm just not a fan of Sony and hate to see them succeed and control media because that's no good for anyone. Just my own crazy opinion.

[Harrison]

I'm completely the opposite and am a Sony fan. I've got lots of Sony hardware including all their consoles through the years, one of their top of the line DVD players and an AV Receiver. All great products.

I personally don't mind if a large company such as Sony does well. OK they do have the money to enforce certain things, but equally they have the money for continued support and development of a technology. Something that is often not the case with small companies fighting to stay alive.

[LowercaseE]

Sony doesn't make bad products, I just have found that other competing companies make equal or better products for the same price or less. Toshiba isn't exactly a small company either and HD DVD, in my opinion, has a bit of an edge over BR in picture quality. A friend of mine who is a home theatre-phile has quite an amazing set up and has both products and has shown me comparisons between the two. Maybe it was just my biased opinion but I thought that the HD DVD releases looked better than their BR counterparts.

[Sharingan]

Maybe it was just my biased opinion but I thought that the HD DVD releases looked better than their BR counterparts.

That's because many of the early 'multiplatform' releases were 'ported', so to speak, from HD DVD to BR, instead of being produced with BR's better bandwidth and storage capacity in mind. Ports are only going to look identical at best, never better. If one wants to some true BR demo material, look to the exclusive releases like Disney's Ratatouille or Fox's Kingdom of Heaven.

And yes, having a bias is definitely going to make one side of things look better, even if there were no differences at all.

[AlexJ]

I though the same encode was used for most dual releases meaning there shouldn't have been any difference between them. Wouldn't have anything to do with Lionsgate using BR would it LowercaseE ;)

[Harrison]

:lol: That could cloud your view by a lot if Lionsgate got mentioned!

As for the video encoding. There are a number of video encoding codecs that the disc authors can choose to use when encoding their video for both formats.

For Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, the player specification mandates certain codec compatibilities for both hardware devices and software. For Video, all players support MPEG-2, H,264/AVC and SMPTE VC-1. So they are level and can output exactly the same quality video.

But differences in the video quality of the two formats is actually down to some technical reasons. So far all HD-DVD's have been encoded in 1080p using the VC-1 codec. In contrast early BD-Rom's were encoded in 720p using the older MPEG2 codec, but more recent releases are now using the same encoding as HD-DVD.

There is a reason for this. Initially MPEG2 encoding was cheaper to do because most authoring studios already had hardware MPEG2 encoders from their DVD authoring. And MPEG2 HD quality encoding typically produces a 22GB file for a 2 hour film, so this easily fits onto a 25GB single layer BD-Rom. But it cannot fit onto a single layer 15GB HD-DVD. So instead they had to use the newer VC-1 codec which typically encoded to the same quality as MPEG2, but at half the size, so a 2 hour film is only about 11GB in size and fits easily onto the single layer 15GB HD-DVD.

So it was all down to speed and expense of encoding that made some initial BD-Rom releases inferior quality, and that is amusingly because BD-Rom offers larger storage space than HD-DVD. Quite mad when you think about it. Initially less storage space equalled better video quality.

But looking to the future, BR beats HD-DVD by quite a margin with the maximum transfer rate it can stream data from the discs. For Blu-Ray Discs, a movie can have a maximum transfer rate of 54 Mbit/s for both audio and video combined, with 40 Mbit's of this dedicated to video data, meaning a lo is left for audio and interactive BD-J content.

In contrast HD-DVD only offers a maximum combined streaming bandwidth of 36.55 Mbit/s. And a big contrast is that HD-DVD only has a maximum video bit rate of 28 Mbit/s, compared to BR's 40 Mbit/s.

And in on going development TDK and Hitachi now have Blu-Ray discs that can stored 7 hours of 32Mbit/s video (HDTV), or 3.5 hours at an amazing 64 Mbit/s video, which is Cinema 4K quality!!!

[Buleste]

To add even more confusion to the debate i found this news story.


The popular Blu-ray format for DVDs may not be as attractive to some users as it became apparent that their machines may not be upgradeable.

The Blu-ray group of distributors have released new features for players like picture in picture options, yet most Blu-ray players do not have the necessary hardware.

To solve some of the problems, users will be able to purchase BD Live, which will allow users to connect to the internet to download related content such as ringtones, trailers and photos. Yet because internet functionality is not a mandatory requirement in current players, none on the market today will be able to access this feature.

Only Sony's PlayStation 3 will be able to access the upgrades, as it comes with the right built-in and online access features.

Frank Simonis, of Philips and the European chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, said that the issue of features and upgrades was one of timing.

"We needed to create momentum and get the players on the market," he said.

"If we had postponed launch to add in the hardware for the latest features, we would not be in the situation we have today."

[v85rawdeal]

To add even more confusion to the debate i found this news story.


The popular Blu-ray format for DVDs may not be as attractive to some users as it became apparent that their machines may not be upgradeable.

The Blu-ray group of distributors have released new features for players like picture in picture options, yet most Blu-ray players do not have the necessary hardware.

To solve some of the problems, users will be able to purchase BD Live, which will allow users to connect to the internet to download related content such as ringtones, trailers and photos. Yet because internet functionality is not a mandatory requirement in current players, none on the market today will be able to access this feature.

Only Sony's PlayStation 3 will be able to access the upgrades, as it comes with the right built-in and online access features.

Frank Simonis, of Philips and the European chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, said that the issue of features and upgrades was one of timing.

"We needed to create momentum and get the players on the market," he said.

"If we had postponed launch to add in the hardware for the latest features, we would not be in the situation we have today."





I noticed it too, but that's why I got a PS3 :) All those lovely firmware updates!

[Harrison]

The PS3 is definitely the only Blu-Ray player worth getting at the moment.

[Buleste]

Which makes me even more anti Sony as that means they then dominate two different markets giving the consumer even less choice as to which is the better product and allowing one corporation to influence what we play and what we watch in one very foul swoop.

[Harrison]

In contrast I think it is a great thing. One home multimedia platform to serve all of our entertainment needs. I never agree with the argument that competition always breeds innovation. Instead thinking that a unified single platform is the best solution as developers can then concentrate on content instead of compatibility.

[Buleste]

Unfortunatly competion does not lead to innovation it leads to evolution. With one company dominating music, films, TV, Consoles and hardware manufacture it leads to stagnation and lack of choice plus it allows for a small group of people to dictate what we buy, play, listen to and watch which is never a good thing. As you can tell i'm against any corporation holding too much power such as Sony, Microsoft, BSkyB to name but a few.

[LowercaseE]

Which makes me even more anti Sony as that means they then dominate two different markets giving the consumer even less choice as to which is the better product and allowing one corporation to influence what we play and what we watch in one very foul swoop.

I think you and I will get along well. :D :thumbs:

As for the whole Lionsgate using BR thing, to be honest, that doesn't have anything to do with me not liking BR. It certainly doesn't HELP the situation but I could actually care less about them using it. I don't even pay attention to them anymore.

[AlexJ]

As far as I can tell, current Blu-Ray players will still play all future Blu-Ray discs, but some of the special features will be unavailable. Kinda like how a cheapo DVD player can play the DVD fine, but might not be able to output the DTS soundtrack.


With one company dominating music, films, TV, Consoles and hardware manufacture it leads to stagnation and lack of choice plus it allows for a small group of people to dictate what we buy, play, listen to and watch which is never a good thing.

There was one CD format, and one DVD format after Sony gave up their competing format early on - I don't recall there being problems there. Anyone can release on Blu-Ray, and although Sony are widely credited as BR being their format, it's future is dictated by the "Blu-ray Disc Association" who founded with 9 members (including other electronics companies like Panasonic, Phillips, LG, Samsung, Sharp) and now have 18 board member and 65 contributing companies deciding how the format progresses.

It's by no-means a one-vendor process dictating where Blu-Ray is heading.

[Buleste]

Which makes me even more anti Sony as that means they then dominate two different markets giving the consumer even less choice as to which is the better product and allowing one corporation to influence what we play and what we watch in one very foul swoop.

I think you and I will get along well. :D :thumbs:



Can anyone tell me if this is a good or a bad thing?;)

[LowercaseE]

Which makes me even more anti Sony as that means they then dominate two different markets giving the consumer even less choice as to which is the better product and allowing one corporation to influence what we play and what we watch in one very foul swoop.

I think you and I will get along well. :D :thumbs:



Can anyone tell me if this is a good or a bad thing?;)

I'd say a good thing. The more hate for Sony, the better! :devilbanana: :biggun:

[Stephen Coates]

EDIT: This was a reply to the bottom of page 2. I didn't realise there was a page 3.

Would that really be surprising if HD-DVD is better quality?

Apparently Betamax was better quality than VHS, but VHS still won.. (Price and more storage space right?)

Can Blueray store more information than HDDVD?

I'm with Harrison on the Sony thing. I have used quite a few Sony products and have always been happy. Especially with their televisions.

Now going back to the latest posts, I don't see whats wrong with the PS3 having Blu ray. Isn't it similar to the PS2, where some people would have a PS2 rather than buying a seperate DVD player? At least if the PS3 has bluray, those who want a PS3 get the added conveniance of a blu ray player, and those that don't want a PS3 but do want blu ray can buy their own blu ray player.

[Demon Cleaner]

With BluRay v2 it can now do the same as HD-DVD.

[Harrison]

EDIT: This was a reply to the bottom of page 2. I didn't realise there was a page 3.

Would that really be surprising if HD-DVD is better quality?

It isn't. The two formats support exactly the same encoding formats.


Apparently Betamax was better quality than VHS, but VHS still won.. (Price and more storage space right?

Betamax was better quailty. That is why it went on to be the industry standard in the professional market. It only actually failed in the consumer market. I expect you have seen DigiBeta video cameras used a lot in the news.

But as you say, VHS tapes were bigger and could record more per tape.


Can Blueray store more information than HDDVD?

Yes, as detailed in my post on the past page of this thread, Single layer Blu-Ray holds 25GB compared to 15GB for HD-DVD, and dual layer Blu-Ray holds 54GB compared to 30GB for HD-DVD.


With BluRay v2 it can now do the same as HD-DVD.

Really? What has been changed?

The only real differences between the two discs standards were that HD-DVD had a better mandate for audio over BR. Has this now been changed?

Oh and the other difference is the BR uses BD-J open source java for it's interactive content, whereas HD-DVD using a proprietor Microsoft language for its.

[Demon Cleaner]

BluRay v2 has more features now. You can also now stream 2 videos, like the commentary, which was always only audio, is now also video. Retrieve infromation via internet, discuss movies over internet in a group, and other internet features.

[Harrison]

Oh right, I know what you mean. This is the player profiles, with 3 versions up to now, used as the minimum set of standards required for a Blu-Ray player to support. These started with the profile BD-Video (profile 1), then Bonus Video (profile 1.1), and now BD-Live (profile 2).

The first profile, BD-Video supported all but the internet connection capability, but all features were optional. With the Bonus Video Profile was added, making all the additional features Mandatory (all players had to support them), and now the latest BD-Live (Profile 2) adds Internet connection capability to the list and makes it mandatory.

Due to this having been handled in these profile stages, those who bought into the profile 1 specification players are now complaining because they can't access any of these more recent additions to the format. But the Blu-Ray consortium argues that they can still access the main video and audio parts, just not the additional content, and it was never stated at the time that they would be able to.

For these reasons the PS3 is going to remain the only Blu-Ray player worth buying as it will be updated to support new player profiles as they become available. For other standalone players it will always require them to be replaced.

[AlexJ]

Betamax was better quailty. That is why it went on to be the industry standard in the professional market. It only actually failed in the consumer market. I expect you have seen DigiBeta video cameras used a lot in the news.

Actually news programmes are one of the few where DigiBeta isn't king, due to the conditions etc. DVCAM is often used to make news reports. Most regular programmes though would fail QC if they used DVCAM due to the murkyness of the pictures in comparison to DigiBeta.

[Harrison]

That is true, for out in the field work DV offers smaller tapes and lighter equipment.

[v85rawdeal]

Looks like M$ have thrown in the towel...



Microsoft 'would consider Xbox 360 Blu-Ray drive'

Despite throwing its lot in with the HD-DVD crowd, Microsoft has admitted it would bow to consumer demand if the Sony-backed Blu-Ray technology won the format war.

According to Xbox group marketing manager Albert Penello, this would even stretch to an Xbox 360 (http://www.game.co.uk/lowdown.aspx?lid=5789) console fitted with Blu-Ray.

"It should be consumer choice and if that's the way they vote, that's something we'll have to consider," he said.

But he added that entertainment group Warner's decision to swap its support from Toshiba's HD-DVD hi-definition format for Blu-Ray is unlikely to have a major impact on the console war between the Xbox 360 and the Sony PlayStation 3 (http://www.game.co.uk/lowdown.aspx?lid=7068).

"You can't say it's not a bummer, not a setback, but I've seen this battle declared over so many times," he said.

"I want consumers to have a voice in this and I think there are a lot of consumers who bought HD-DVD who are going to have a say in how this shakes out."


Guess that will clear the way for more xbox games on BD disc.... which is good for PS3 owners, as it means no more shoddy ports from a smaller storage format.

[Harrison]

Plus Sony would make money from the sale of Xbox 360's! ;)

[AlexJ]

Looks like a few more nails have been hammered into the HD-DVD coffin as Walmart & Best Buy in the US have withdrawn the format. Oh and rumors suggest (http://www.thegamersthought.com/2008/02/breaking-news-egm-confirms-universals.html) that Universal have just gone dual format. I reckon the whole thing might be over before the summer.

[Harrison]

I think it is already over anyway, so no need to wait for the summer. Stores such as Tesco have been selling Toshiba HD-DVD players for under £200 since before Christmas which has to prove something. Normally a new technology won't drop in price so quickly.

[Sharingan]

It's not just Best Buy and Walmart that have made announcements either recently. Since the 4th of January, around 30 companies which have previously supported HD DVD, including retailers, film distribution companies etc., have abandoned the HD DVD camp.

These include Netflix, HBO, National Geographic, Imation, Woolworths, Sonic Solutions, ADV Films, Manga Films, and so on.

Moreover, sales ratios have been hovering in the 83:17 range in favour of BR ever since Warner's decision (when ratios had been typically 66:36 throughout 2007), in spite of firesale attempts by Toshiba (sub-$150 players) the past weeks.

The writing's been on the wall for a while now. Toshiba ought to do the decent thing and officially pull the plug instead of shoving more hardware into the hands of uneducated customers who think they're buying into a format that will be supported for years to come.

[v85rawdeal]

And in 6 months time, one of the newest Media formats will be totally retro....

From nought to retro in 18 months...

[Sharingan]

Game over. (http://www.reuters.com/article/companynewsandpr/idusl1627196120080216)

Finito. The End. Toshiba poised to stop investing money in production or development of new HD DVD equipment. Remaining stock will still be sold.

[LowercaseE]

It's a sad day. An incomplete, more expensive, more restrictive technology will be the next format. Well, at least I have my HD DVD player and I'll be able to pick up discs for next to nothing. I hope consumers are happy.

[sarek2k]

i haven't read all these post on this WAR i've typed my thoughts on osuk, however i'd like to know if anyone here has either format,hddvd or blueray to argue a defense for?

in my honest opinion even today the Playstation 2 was never considerd a true dvd player more something it did as an extra! is the ps3 the same or better as a blueray player? i don't know i don't have one. in 3 years time when a blueray player is less than 50 quid will the ps3's player be so important just like ps2 was.

this time round to me it seems most ppl have backed off this war from either camp be it blueray or hd-dvd! it's not like DVD ain't serving us more than well enough you could understand the need to go from vhs to dvd,is a big difference but dvd to hd-dvd/blueray is not quite so obvious, I mean a good dvd looks just great, the only flaw is scratched disc etc where as vhs was lo-res etc compared to dvd not to mention tape chew up's etc. with VHS was a need to upgrade with dvd there isn't the same urgency.

The only reason i could think of to ditch DVD is HD but even then you have upscalling dvd players! i reckon most of us will dodge the whole question untill it's non avoidable, affordable and worth it! The last thing i want to see is the bad bad old days when vhs thrashed betamax/phillips etc and we where left paying a minimum of 9.99 for a film a bad monopoly at the time rarely did you get any new movie under that price.

[Teho]

in my honest opinion even today the Playstation 2 was never considerd a true dvd player more something it did as an extra! is the ps3 the same or better as a blueray player?

Yes. The PS3 is still considered the best blu-ray player on the market. And not just because there hasn't been a good standalone player released yet, it is a pretty good player. It costs less than an equally good standalone player, and is also upgradeable through online firmware updates so it follows the latest standards. Not all standalone players can do that.

As for DVD being good enough, it is for now. Until you get yourself an HDTV. Unless you have some form of upscaling going on when watching your DVDs, then you'll start seeing its flaws. Compression artifacts, obvious pixellization due to low resolution and such. Incidentally, the PS3 also has DVD upscaling features, so your DVDs will look pretty good on an HDTV if playing them on that.

I've watched a good deal of movies on blu-ray now, and personally I don't regret having upgraded to it. DVDs don't really come close to the image detail and sharpness, even when upscaled. Also you get uncompressed audio on just about all releases if you have the stereo equipment for it.

[AlexJ]

Is the jump from DVD-BluRay as big as the one from VHS-DVD? No, it isn't because the biggest gain with the former was the loss of tape degredation etc. However on a HDTV there is a noticable difference between the two. It looks sharper and more detailed whereas a standard DVD player looks a bit blocky in places. The blockyness is overcome when upscaling but the detail isn't added in.

Does Blu-Ray winning the format war mean that prices will now spiral without HDDVD to keep it competitive? No, not in my opinion. DVD is going to be a much tougher rival so prices will have to stay competitive in order to compete. Having all studios using the format means more films being released in the format and more discs being sold should drive down the cost of producing a disc and prices should start to fall.

[Teho]

Blu-ray being the only format won't mean anything for prices any more than DVD being the only format did. I really don't know why people keep saying that it will.

[LowercaseE]

I just want to point out that there is a very noticeable difference between a DVD and HD DVD in terms of picture quality, sharpness, and detail. I was originally of the line of thinking that it wasn't that big a deal, but when I first saw a 1080p 24fps film on a true HD TV, my tune changed. All the upscaling in the world isn't going to change the fact that a DVD is encoded at 480p. It does help a little, but there is still a major difference in the 2 resolutions.

[v85rawdeal]

Of course there would need to be that vast difference in quality, otherwise why would companies push their new product on that basis... Although, to be fair, I feel that the only ones who can be blamed for HD-DVD failing is the companies that didn't push HD-DVD properly... ie. NO advertising whatsoever and a rather lame partnership with M$ who we all knew would be in it for themselves.

At least Blu-Ray got advertising, I think that Toshiba gave up on HD-DVD very early on so they could put more support into their BD players...

[Harrison]

I agree. For once they admitted defeat early on as soon as it was obvious that the format had failed, instead of trying to hold on to a failing format, as had been the case so many times in the past. With Blu-Ray now so strong it would have been suicide to continue trying to sell the HD-DVD format.

The only thing that is annoying is that the HD-DVD standards were much higher on the discs compared to Blu-Ray. The audio and video specifications stated HD-DV had to be 1080i and the audio had to be Dolby Digital Plus. With Blu-Ray it only states that is needs to be at least 720 and Dolby Digital, so like early DVDs that didn't have Dolby Digital, we now still need to check the quality of the Blu-Ray discs we are buying, whereas with HD-DVD it would have guaranteed we were getting the best quality with every disc.

[toomanymikes]

This is true but most BD new realeses are 1080p with some format of lossless sound so the difference with HD DVD and Blue Ray really only applies to early releases. As people become more familiar with all the HD jargon and standards they will begin to demand the best of quality from the now leading format, and quite rightly so. I can only expect this to happen now that there is one clear format to adopt and therefore 50% less confusion! :huh:

[Harrison]

True. Also now that disc authors don't have to author discs for two different formats they should be able to concentrate on developing the best results for the single Blu-Ray format now.

[toomanymikes]

I just hope this 'war' hasnt damaged the hd format as a whole in the eyes of consumers.

[v85rawdeal]

I honestly don't believe that the majority of the public were even aware it was happening, seeing as most people are still adopting to DVDs (with a few exceptions, of course)

[LowercaseE]

I just hope this 'war' hasnt damaged the hd format as a whole in the eyes of consumers.

I guess I'll be the voice of dissent (hard to believe huh? :lol:) and say that I actually hope it has damaged the hd format. It would be too sweet to see BluRay fail and something better come along. Of course I know that's not going to happen, but I can dream can't I?

[Submeg]

You surely are crazy! Lol.

[Sharingan]

Wow ... I just counted my Blu-ray collection and I'm already up to 32 titles. That's 7 Blu-rays a month since I started buying them in December. Haven't purchased a DVD since, and truth be told, it's rather hard to go back to standard definition stuff now.

[Harrison]

That is quite good going. But the question is... are they all worth repeat watching?

[Sharingan]

Some, probably not. I can definitely see myself repeat watching the family films like Ratatouille, Cars, Ice Age etc. with nephews and nieces, and in the future, my own kids. The same for those timeless classics like Blade Runner.

In my opinion, high-def is best suited for big action flicks, sci-fi, fantasy and animated features. I don't see myself rewatching something like a comedy, so I don't tend to buy into that genre.

[Teho]

One I've seen lately that I'd recommed for the visuals alone is Beowulf. Best looking movie I've seen yet. And it also helps that the movie is pretty good as well. Great take on the classic saga.

[Harrison]

I've actually avoiding seeing Beowulf because it has looked quite crap in all the trailers I've seen. Probably because Ray Winstone is such a bad actor and all the trailers have just shown him shouting "I'm Beowulf". I will still watch it though once it's on Sky.

[Teho]

Well, it's my kind of movie. I'm a little biased as well though, one of my favourite authors, Neil Gaiman, wrote the script. He's made sure that it's definitely not your average hack'em-up popcorn flick, it does have more depth to it than you'd expect. But I can easily see that it's not for everyone.

Blu-ray version does have some awesome visuals though.

[Sharingan]

I might pick it up. Most animated movies are pure eye-candy in high definition.

[Buleste]

Apparently Ghost in the Shell2 is to be 1080dpi HD on Blu Ray.

[Harrison]

Cool. I loved the first film so will probably buy the second one if it gets released in HD.

[v85rawdeal]

The next movie I shall get on BD is Sweeney Todd, and that is gonna be a great film to watch, with all the little details so much clearer to see than on SD format...

The future's good. The future's expensive...

[Sharingan]

I'm hoping for a definitive, extended special edition final cut of the LotR trilogy. Man, I've bought that series like 5 times over on DVD. Should be totally great in high-def.

[killergorilla]

You do realise it's still the same film right?

[Teho]

Most animated movies are pure eye-candy in high definition.

On that note, definitely get the Pixar Short Film Collection. Contains all the short films Pixar has made to date. The oldest ones are mainly interesting just to see what they pulled off with the equipment they had at the time, but some of the later ones are a riot. And the blu-ray version comes with jawdropping visuals as well. I got it a while ago and can certainly recommend it.

[Harrison]

Does it include the original Pixar lamp animations? As rendered on an Amiga!

My favourite one from that series has to be the jr lamp one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kr-SJXE2hc

[Teho]

If you mean the full short Luxo Jr, then yes. I don't remember seeing any test animations or anything, but the disc does have some bonus material. I don't recall exactly what though. That original lamp animation was actually their second short, the collection also has the first one, Wally B. Which has little entertainment value by today's standards but is pretty darn impressive considering the hardware available at the time.

[Harrison]

Cool. I might have to get that once I buy a PS3. I'm a big fan of the early Pixar stuff. I had to study it at university for the animation part of my course. :)

And yes, the Adventures of Andre and Wally B was very impressive considering it was made in 1984. Considering the hardware and 3D software available at the time it must have been a real hands on nightmare to make.