PS3 - not backwards compatible?

[Submeg]

I have heard from a guy "in the know" that it may be possible that the PS3 will not be 100% compatible with PS2 and PS1 games....does anyone know anything about this? I think it would be extremely bizzare (not to mention stupid) if this were the case.

[Demon Cleaner]

It will not be hardware downwards compatible, only software. I prefer this method, as it means firmwares will still be released to increase compability, which isn't the case if its only hardware downwards compatible. Though at the beginning the firmware may still not run as much games as with the hardware method.

[Harrison]

There will always be some compatibility issues between different hardware. Look at the compatibility between different computers of the past. The Atari STFM and the STE and the Amiga A500 and A1200. Both upgrading systems had some compatibility issues with software originally written for the older system. This is always due to games coders taking full advantage of system hardware right down to the basic core level, coding directly to the memory registers of each chip in the system, so that when a new improved system is released the memory registers will be different and may cause issues and compatibility problems.

As for the PS3, yes there are some compatibility issues, but as Demon said, Sony did the wise thing and adding the compatibility into the firmware of the PS3 so as problems with specific games are found they can be fixed and released in the next firmware update. Sony have already been doing this and already released a firmware update that fixed the compatibility with many PS2 and PS1 games.

There is an online database of PS3 compatibility here (http://www.jp.playstation.com/ps3/status/) It is in Japanese so might be hard to navigate easily but it does contain information about PS3 compatibility with each of the complete 7,841 games in the Sony PS1 and PS2 database!

UPDATE: I also found the US compatibility status page now here (http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus) which gives very detailed information about the compatibility of each game you search for, saying exactly what the issues currently are.

BTW, did you know that the PS3 actually contains the PS2 CPU and GPU processors to aid in better compatibility of older PS2 games? Much as the PS2 contains the original PS1's CPU for better compatibility with PS1 games. This combined with the firmware configuration settings for PS2 compatibility, each time games are found to contain some compatibility issues they can be fixed by Sony.

And most of the compatibility issues do not mean a game will not run at all. A lot of the issues are things like missing audio in menu screens or background music in game. Such things are annoying by the games are playable. There are not that many games that will not run at all.

This is in stark contrast to the Xbox 360 where backwards compatibility with the older Xbox games requires direct compatibility code for each game to run, and so only the games that have code written to run on the 360 will work, which is not many out of the complete Xbox back catalogue.

[Teho]

The thing is that they removed the actual PS2 Emotion Engine chip from the european model. It is present in the Japanese and US models and provides stable backwards compatibility. It isn't included in the Euro model, but is emulated in software instead. Take this with a grain of salt, but I heard from someone on a different message board that no model was supposed to have the chip in it, it was supposed to be software emulated all the time. The launch models got the chip in it because the software solution wasn't ready. It still isn't, so not including it in the European model means backwards compatibility is going to be poor at least to begin with.

But as was said, continuous updates of the firmware is going to keep improving the compatibility as time goes by. But it won't be that great in the beginning, sadly. PS1 emulation however is promised to be just as good as it was on the PS2. Whoever said that was going to be bad is just plain wrong.

The european backwards compatibility list is going to be here (http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc/), but it isn't going to be available until the 23rd.

[Harrison]

I didn't know that had removed the Emotion Engine chip from the European version of the PS3. Maybe this is why the release date is really so much later than the other region releases? :unsure: After all they would need to do some motherboard redesigning. The removal of the chip will definitely reduce manufacturing costs for Sony and hopefully help bring down the cost of the console soon.

But as you say, removal of the chip will definitely reduce compatibility to begin with, but once the firmware starts to be updated it should be just as good as any hardware solution.

I just thought. If this is completely in the firmware they must be emulating the PS2 pretty well in software. If some emulation hackers can get hold of the firmware and disassemble it they might be able to reverse engine a pretty good PC PS2 emulator. Just an idea.

[Submeg]

Fair enough, the dude I talked to didnt go into much detail about it, but if it has firmware updates it should be ok.

[J T]

I didn't know that had removed the Emotion Engine chip from the European version of the PS3.... The removal of the chip will definitely reduce manufacturing costs for Sony and hopefully help bring down the cost of the console soon.


This is what most of the websites seem to be saying. A lot of people are pretty angry about it from what I have seen. A lot of people really are hoping that the PS3 screws Sony. Personally, I don't really care one way or the other.

[Harrison]

I personally hope the PS3 is a huge success. I've always been a big fan of Sony consoles and will definitely be getting a PS3.

[AlexJ]

Backwards compatability isn't a huge thing for me. Sure it'd be nice, but chances are when I get my PS3, I'll only be playing the new games for the first few months. By then I'll have the choice of either the software emulation will be good enough or wheel out the old PS2 if I really want to play the games.

[Submeg]

The problem is, many people have "traded" in their PS2 to get the PS3, so when it comes out they wont be able to play any games...

[Demon Cleaner]

The problem is, many people have "traded" in their PS2 to get the PS3That was the main thing we talked about in the topic of trashing, destroying or selling his old stuff. As I collect consoles and computers, I never have problems with backwards compatibility. F.ex. if I want to play a PSX game, I take my PSX and don't play it on a PS2. I just think that it feels more real.

[Submeg]

Fair enough, but I know that they guy I get my games from has told them that they are, so he is a bit pissed off right about now

[Harrison]

The compatibility issues with the PS3 are not as bad as you seem to be making out. A large proportion of PS2 games will still run perfectly well with no problems.

And most of the games with problems don't stop you playing the games. For Example Gran Turismo 4 only crashes if you leave it looping the games into movie for 4 times or more. Not something you will probably be doing if you have loaded it up to play. Others have minor graphical or audio glitches such as a few vertical strips appearing at a certain point in a game. All are a bit annoying but you can still play the games.

[Submeg]

I didnt know how bad it was going to be but at least that sounds ok. What about PS1 games?

[Harrison]

99% of PS1 games should work perfectly on the PS3 from the start. I have yet to see any reported as not working, or that have problems.

[Submeg]

Then why was everyone going so mental on the net? :hmmm:

[Harrison]

That is because you will find most of them are under 16 years old and throw a hissy fit at the slightest thing (especially on sites such as GameFAQs). They get up in arms just because it isn't 100% compatible with everything.

[Teho]

Right. Anyone with half a brain could see that this hysteria was unfounded. But just to put the final nail into this, threespeech.com posted an interview with Phil Harrison (http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=301) earlier today, where he says:


Q: What is Sony’s thinking behind leaving the Emotion Engine off the motherboards of PAL PS3s?

Phil Harrison: “Our thinking involves being able to bring the latest hardware specification of the PS3 to Europe, although that does mean an initial slight reduction in the number of PS2 components. But it’s important to put that into context: there will still be thousands of PlayStation and PlayStation 2 titles playable on the PS3 at launch. It’s very easy to over-react. We’re working to introduce a resource on the Web to detail which titles will have backwards compatibility. And as we make firmware upgrades, we will be able to add to that list.”

Q: Can you give us a ballpark figure for the number of PS2 titles which will be playable at launch on the PS3?

PH: “The situation is changing every day, but on March 23, we expect the list to include over 1,000 PS2 titles.”

So no cause for worry then. 1000 PS2 titles is still less than 50% of the PS2 games released in europe (2,300+), but as he said they'll keep improving on that. Like most level-headed people had allready guessed.

[Harrison]

Plus it is a sure bet that those 1000 odd games that will initially work properly will be the more popular best selling titles, and they will then start fixing the compatibility of more games based on their popularity and users requirements. After all, there is little point in wasting time getting a game to work if only 3 people in the world will ever take advantage of it's PS3 compatibility.

[Demon Cleaner]

I definitely hope my Barbie Horse Adventure game will work.

[Harrison]

Don't worry mate, knowledge of your secret gaming collection is safe with us! ;) :lol:

[Harrison]

I just had a thought though. They will be concentrating on PAL PS2 releases for the PAL region PS3. This could be very bad news for importers/downloaders of US and JAP games. Although as standard they won't work in a PAL PS3 anyway, so lets hope the modchip makes sort this out. Maybe they ould stick the US/JAP firmwares on the modchip? :unsure:

[v85rawdeal]

The problem is, many people have "traded" in their PS2 to get the PS3, so when it comes out they wont be able to play any games...

My sentiments exactly... to this point i have sent the following e-mail to Sony...

Could you please let me know if you will be lifting all restrictions on the importing of japanese PS3 systems into the UK after the release of the Euro PS3, as I feel that I would so much better for myself by purchasing a system that I know will have very little difficulty in playing games that I have spent my cash on.

I feel very dissapointed in the lack of information on the software that will run on the PS3, and have no intention of buying the new system, to replace my broken ps2 (a purchase that I put off replacing because of the imminent release of the PS3) only to find out that all the new ps2 games I have purchased will not work on the system, when I know that i can then sell my games and purchase the japanese versions for less.

I would appreciate it if you could help me with this, otherwise I feel that my money may very get spent on an XBox 360

Mind you, i did forget to ask them if they had any intent of bringing out a PS3 Emulator for my PSP system :lol:

[Teho]

I just went through that EU backwards compatibility list (http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc/) in order to sort my PS2 collection into non-working and working. The list has three grades for games that work: 'Working perfectly', having 'minor issues' and 'noticeable issues'. If the game isn't on the list, it's not working.

So, based on that list, in my collection 39% of the games don't work at all. Meaning 61% are working to an extent. Completely broken down, my list is:

30% working perfectly
9% minor issues
19% noticeable issues
39% non-working

Not nearly as bad as feared, but of course not as good as 100% working.

But it's now confirmed that this move was planned all along. The PS3 really was meant to have software emulation to start with, but the NTSC models got the PS2 hardware as a last resort since the software solution wasn't ready. It's also been confirmed that the next revision of the NTSC models will also not have the PS2 hardware built in, but also go over to software emulation.

At the same time Sony has stated that though firmware upgrades may expand on that list from time to time, improving on the backwards compatibility is not a priority and is not something they will focus that much on.

So I guess it's a good idea to be hanging on to that PS2 a while longer.

[Submeg]

They are not thinking very clearly are they. Lets think.....People have what system right now? A PS2. So, they have games that run on....a PS2. So when the PS3 comes out, what games will they want to play? Games from the PS2. Oh, really? Well not all of them work....Well FU. I'll go buy an Xbox then.It will be funny when Sony realise their customers arent happy that they have to wait to play a PS3, seeing as everyone has been waiting for it to be released. I dont really feel like forking out another hundred bucks for a game.

[Harrison]

Except, look at the Xbox 360. Not many Xbox games work on an Xbox 360. Each game has to have emulation written specifically to support each title on the 360, so fans of each title have to hope and wait for the emulation for their favourite titles to be written.

The PS3 in contrast is aiming to eventually be backwardly compatible with all
PS2 titles. Consider how long most emulators such as WinUAE have been in development, and yet they are still not perfectly emulating everything. The PS2 is a very complete system to emulate, and even though Sony have the big advantage of knowing the system inside out, it will still take a lot of work with the software emulator to fully emulate the PS2 perfectly.

And as mentioned previously, doing this via software does mean they can keep working on it and improving it and releasing new firmware with better support. Something that would not be possible if the backwards compatibility was hardware based.

[Submeg]

Fair enough, I didnt know that. Interesting...well it will be cool when they can get a full PS2 emulator running...