RF cables

[Harrison]

I was just rummaging though some old computer stuff and came across my Atari 2600. :)

But this got me thinking. The broadcasting industry is a long way into the move from analogue to digital, and the digital broadcasting switchover in the UK and US, and probably many other countries has begun. Soon there will come a point where new TVs will not be sold with analogue TV tuners or the original RF connector.

When this happens, what will become of all our old beloved retro computers and consoles that only have an RF input? The Atari 2600 for example has an RF cable hardwired into it's case and no other output. And many other early 8-bit systems only had this connection type too.

So what can be done to prolong their life? Make them compatible with newer standards like composite?

[Stephen Coates]

If the TV only has a digital tuner but has a composite input, you would need an external TV tuner which has a composite output. I can't see any reason why that would be too hard to make.

If the TV has no analogue inputs and only has RGB or HDMI, then you would need a converter, which is likely to get expensive.

It will probably be a long time before there are no TVs avaliable with analogue tuners. Since alot of products are sold in several countries, it would probably be best for manufacturers to keep putting both in, so that countries that still have analogue systems can use the TVs as well.

[Harrison]

But the analogue circuits inside any hardware these days is normally just a standalone module connected to the main circuit board. For example when I opened up a DVD Recorder recently the RF part was a separate sealed unit with Philips written on it, even though the main unit was from LiteOn.

What I'm trying to get at is that most parts are now off the shelf and manufacturers of TV sets and any other technology can just add or remove components based on the end market. Most electronics we already get in the UK for example have an E after the model number. This denotes that it is a version of the product specifically for the UK market. Normally some things have been removed, other added or altered etc...

The only thing is. Freeview works by being connected to a standard aerial, as used by analogue TV. So does that mean the same circuits are actually still being used?

[Stephen Coates]

No, it will require different circuits as the freeview signals are still in the UHF band (analogue frequencies may be different to digital, but are still in the same band, which is why the arial should be compatible, but some people might need new ones), but are transmitted differently.

Just having higher or lower frequencies might mean that similar circuits could be used, with just different values of components for detecting the different frequencies. But freeview is transmitted differently to analogue television. Freeview uses QAM. On an analogue transmision, the picture is an AM signal, whereas the sound is an FM signal. This is again, different to the old 405 line system, where both the picture and sound were AM (as far as I'm aware).

The same arial should be usable because the arial *should* be able to cope with the frequencies of both analogue and Freeview.

Then of course the signal that has been decoded from the transmission is obviously a 1 or a 0, instead of picture, colour and sound, so the digital signal has to be processed in some way or other.

[Harrison]

At the moment you can hook up a freeview box via an aerial rf socket from a freeview box to a TV. I wonder if that will be kept in the future. :hmmm:

And I actually still have a perfectly working 14" TV that only has an RF socket. Not even a scart socket! Would be a shame to not be able to use that if needed in the future. Although I suppose I could keep it with the Atari 2600! :sorcerer:

[Stephen Coates]

At the moment you can hook up a freeview box via an aerial rf socket from a freeview box to a TV. I wonder if that will be kept in the future. :hmmm:


If you are refering to the pass through, it woul dbe silly to not include one. What if you had a freeview box for watching digital television on an old analogue TV, and a video recorder with freeview? Both would still need an arial. You just wouldn't have any need to connect the arial to the TV.

[woody.cool]

I'm not 100% sure, but I reckon you could modify the Atari 2600 to output composite instead of RF. I know this is doable with the Spectrum, so I reckon it'll be doable with other machines.

[Buleste]

Lets face it we will not see the end of the RF input for at least 20 years. Most people still use and will still use for years to come their VCR. Plus if in 20 years time you have an old computer or console that requires a RF cable then you'll no doubt have a working vintage TV to use it on.

[Harrison]

And that raises a question. In years to come will we see retro TV sites and communities pop up in a similar way to the current retro gaming and retro system sites and communities? Can you imagine it? Discussions about remote control hacks to get the most from your 2002 Sony 24" CRT. And imagine all the hardware pr0n of the insides of TV sets. Zetr0 would go blind!

[Cortona]

'Old' analogue TVs will become as collectable as vintage computers and other vintage electronica; although their joints do tend to dry out so I guess it will help to be handy with a soldering iron!

If only somebody made modern flat-wide-screen TVs in the same presentational style as the old TVs with the wooden (teak?) casing. So stylish, and very much in keeping with the old Atari 2600s.

[Buleste]

What'll probably happen by then is that someone creates a dongle to plug in the back of your HDTV so that you can plug in the RF cable so you'll be able to play Pong on a 60" High Def TV with MYEB (makes your ears bleed) surround sound thinking they don't make games like this any more.

[Harrison]

Modern retro TVs. Maybe there is a market for it?

[Stephen Coates]

I'm not 100% sure, but I reckon you could modify the Atari 2600 to output composite instead of RF. I know this is doable with the Spectrum, so I reckon it'll be doable with other machines.

I expect you should be able to do, as the RF output ought to be a composite video signal which has just been RF modulated. So if you remove the RF modulator you will be able to get a composite signal.

Harrison: There will probably be stuff about 625 line televisions in the future. I have already seen plenty of sites about 405 line televisions, including things like how to use a VHS recorder to record and playback 405 line pictures, stuff about converters, so you can watch 625 line programmes on a 405 line set, etc.

A big difference between now, and maybe 30 or more years ago, is that we have lots of peripherals to connect to televisions. Back in the 1950s, you might be quite lucky to have just a television set, but it is unlikely you would have had anything to connect to it. Over the last 20 years we have had all sorts like camcorders, VCRs, consoles.

The VCR certainly isn't going to go away completely. People for a long time will have old recordings on VHS (be it home movies or TV recordings). It is for this reason that VCRs will still have to be avaliable for a long time, and TVs will have to support them. If in a few years, a posh HDTV doesn't have a SCART socket, how will people watch what their old videos, or even DVDs? The DVDs would be viewable if you had a HDDVD player or something, but I can't see people having several of these for a long time, so if you got the HDTV for the bedroom where you just have a bog standard DVD player, you will need to be able to connect it.

So, even if the TV doesn't have an analogue tuner, it would still likely have SCART or composite input.


'Old' analogue TVs will become as collectable as vintage computers and other vintage electronica; although their joints do tend to dry out so I guess it will help to be handy with a soldering iron!

If only somebody made modern flat-wide-screen TVs in the same presentational style as the old TVs with the wooden (teak?) casing. So stylish, and very much in keeping with the old Atari 2600s.

Are you refering to that design on an LCD/Plasma TV? If so, that would just look silly, also it would be too thin. You'd hardly be able to see the wood. If they continued to make such TVs with CRTs then that would be fine.

[Harrison]

I imagined it would be really retro in design with a completely wooden case and push button controls, with the LCD panel inset into an old style beveled surround. Other than the much better image quality and the unit nit being as deep it would look quite authentic.

Or you could even go one better. Much like MAME cabinets built from old Arcade cabinets, you could gut an original wooden TV cabinet and fit an LCD inside. In fact if I even get a house big enough to have a dedicated workshop/experiments room then I would be really tempted to do that just for the fun of it.

Back to TV connections. I don't see Scart being removed from TV sets for some time. The reason is because it is a connector solution for all types of analogue signal. Composite, RGB, Component, and stereo (+ prologic surround). Therefore I think manfuacturers will keep a scart socket for backwards compatibility and HDMI for digital. That way they get the best of both worlds without needing to resort to hundreds of different connectors on the back.

Although, saying that you should see the new 19" Samsung HDTV we have in the bedroom. It is every connection type you could think of. On the left hand edge it has S-Video, Composite and phono audio connectors. Then on the back it has VGA, DVI, HDMI, Scart, component and more. Really well connected.

[J T]

I remember the pain of having a console rf cable with a faulty TV/game switch so pictures would keep cutting out unless the tiny box was at the right angle and without any pressure on the cables, and the switch set just so.

Those were the days.... Actually, they were a bit shit really weren't they?

[Harrison]

It wasn't a ZX Spectrum was it? ;)

[J T]

I think it might have been a Master System (2, for what it's worth).

We did have a speccy too. Can't remember many problems with that.

One thing I did think was kind of neat was having a flap on the little 'portable' telly and a tuning socket under each programme/channel number and a little orange tool to adjust the tuning. Wonderfully tactile, not like these souless on screen menus.

[Harrison]

Some of the TVs my family had when I was younger were like that, with each channel having its own tuning control.

One TV I remember well was when my parents upgraded their rented TV from a smallish one to one that was about 26". At the time that was huge! It had an all wooden polished cabinet and I remember thinking how cool it was to have 8 channel selectors on the front. Each was a touch button but different to modern touch buttons. These were metal with a gap down the middle of the button, so touching them bridged the gap and passed the current across your finger. To tune the channels you pulled under the touch buttons and the whole row of buttons pulled out to reveal a tuning dial behind each. Quite a strange design.

[woody.cool]

The Spectrums had really bad RF modulators in them, the RF signal used to drift once the machine got a bit hot, so you could be in the middle of a game and the TV would 'appear' to de-tune itself, problem wasn't the TV but the RF modulator 'drifting'

Harrison: I've got to admit, the current line of Samsung TVs are superb for connectivity, they have just about every connector imaginable.

[J T]

whole row of buttons pulled out to reveal a tuning dial behind each. Quite a strange design.

We had one like that too, the whle block just sort of slid out. It was odd, but kind of cool.

[Cortona]

SCART gets my vote for most annoying and unnecessary cable ever designed. Impossible to plug-in by feel, so you have to turn your TV upside down to plug it in; and massive too, I mean, does it really have to be that big? It is the Duplo of cables.
(I know it provides much superior picture quality to RF, but doesn't composite video tick that box as well?)

[J T]

As ne fule kno, SCART is the shizzle.

Can carry RGB and sound too, nice and easy. The only problem I have ith it are when the stiff wire comes out of the head at an awkward angle and makes it hard to bend round and insert (matron).

[AlexJ]

SCART was a great idea, executed terribly. Did it need to be so big, and with such flimsy pins? And with the chunky rigid wire coming out at an odd-angle (which inevitably would end up the wrong side compared to where the device was). Oh and they always used to half-fall out resulting in some weird effects on the picture. Compare to say a USB connector which is easy to plugin one-handed, even when not looking at the socket with a hand round the back of the PC. Luckily with HDMI they seem to have put this right.